e ni

Conversation started Jul 29, 2015 at 22:21.

Anonymous

Jul 29, 2015 22:21

Q: Is へ and に interchangeable in these cases?

I'm just starting to learn Japanese. I am not quite understand about one of the uses of the captioned particles. I've learned that に refers to the location of destination, and へ refers to the direction of the destination. But my friend told me they are interchangeable and に is colloquial and へ is...

Anonymous

Kaori Kabata wrote a paper titled Interchangeability of so-called interchangeable particles: Corpus analysis of spatial markers, Ni and E

Anonymous

Besides grammatical differences like ×にの being ungrammatical and への being grammatical . . .

Anonymous

And に in general being more common when both can be used . . .

Anonymous

They didn't really find that there was a correlation between the type of verb semantically and the choice of へ or に

Anonymous

They did find collocations with certain nouns, like, そこへ is quite common

Anonymous

Jul 29, 2015 22:27

Hmm, I should re-read this

Anonymous

> Compared to the native speaker judgment data, に's dominance over へ as a spatial goal marker was much more robust in the spoken and written corpus data, with the frequency ratios of へ to に at roughly 1 to 8 and 1 to 5 respectively. While native speaker ratings in the judgment test indicated a higher acceptability of へ in sentences with a focus on the source, へ was not found any more frequently than に with source-/path-focused verbs in neither the spoken nor the written corpus.

Anonymous

> On the other hand, there was a strong preference for に in contexts with a focus on the endpoint of a movement, both in the experimental data and in the corpus data. Although noun type exhibited interaction with particle choice with verbs with a meaning related to 'enter' in the native speaker judgment test, the corpus data indicated that に is preferred in such contexts regardless the size of the location.

Anonymous

It does look like there are differences between spoken and written usage

Anonymous

But I don't think it's as simple as the OP's friend said it was

Anonymous

They're both used in both writing and speech

Anonymous

Jul 29, 2015 22:32

Although both への and especially へと are found much more often in writing

Anonymous

> For the grammar point in discussion, 「に」 targets the destination and 「へ」 refers to the direction of the destination.

Anonymous

I've read this a lot, but へ developed a similar usage to に in the Heian era . . .

Anonymous

So I think there's more overlap between the two than that statement suggests

Anonymous

Jul 29, 2015 23:24

Shibatani's Non-canonical constructions in Japanese (2000) is freely available online: lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/repository/81001551.pdf

Anonymous

The revised version, published as a chapter in Non-canonical Marking of Subjects and Objects (2001), is really formatted much more nicely, though!

Anonymous

I didn't really realize until I was looking at it yesterday that it was different from the version online.

Anonymous

Jul 30, 2015 05:27

Heisig explains in his story that the Japanese see the "daybreak" not as a situation of breaking into a day, but rather as a "nightbreak", with "break" as in "breakfast", the breaking of a given state (night) into another (day). I'm not sure about the actual validity of this story, but that's what he means. — Kuri 8 hours ago

Anonymous

That's confusing, to say the least

Anonymous

Why not just say it's the sun rising over the horizon?

Schoko

Jul 30, 2015 07:32

@snailboat はいｗ

@snailboat のー

@YangMuye おお！ほんまや！

かしこ～い

「布」も

巾が、最初、

縦だから

小学校で教えてほしいよね～そういうこと

@snailboat そーですね

@snailboat そうですね

「川の向こう'に'渡る橋は一つしかありませんでした。」
「友達とレストラン'に'行きます。」
「来月国'に'帰ります。」

でも、

別にいいと思うし・・

「へ」のほうが、

フォーマルに聞こえるかな

意味は同じなんじゃないかな・・・？？

なので、

スーパーに行くんですか？

スーパーへ行くんですか？

も、

意味は同じなんじゃ・・・？

「Are you going "towards" the supermarket? (The speaker may want the listener to do some sort of errand along the way, not necessarily related to the supermarket)」

そうかなあ・・・？？？

どっちも、

スーパー行くんちゃうん？

Q: What is the difference between 判{わか}る and 分{わ}かる?

Until now, I though the only verb for "to know" was . I saw the verb used for the same meaning today. 判{わ}ってるから言{い}ったんだけどね。 I knew that. That's why I said it. (source) It has the same reading and verb transition, but is written with a different Kanji. What is the difference between the...

meaning kanji verbs

Until now, I though the only verb for "to know" was
と、
I saw the verb used for the same meaning today.
の間、

何が抜けてますか？

Yang Muye

Jul 30, 2015 08:45

@Schoko went toward the supermarket does not imply that the subject got the destination. The grammatical property is different. I guess スーパーマーケットの方へ駅まで行く is possible, while スーパーマーケットへ駅まで行く is not.

Schoko

スーパーマーケットの方へ駅まで行く・・・？

スーパーの方へ行く would be "going toward the supermarket"

スーパーへ行く and スーパーに行く both mean "going to the supermarket"

「スーパーへ行きます。」と言われて、「スーパーの方向に別の用事で行くんだなあ」とは、

普通、思わないでしょう

Conversation ended Jul 30, 2015 at 8:57.

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