Sixteen minutes late, start of Parashat Hashavua' Chat #30 - D'varim 5772. Welcome, @Dave @HodofHod @MonicaCellio

Anyone have anything to start us off?

All righty then.... Rashi (3:11) says Og's bed was 9 of his own cubits (length of the arm from elbow to tip of the middle finger, I guess) long and 4 of his own cubits wide. Why on earth would he need such a big bed? Or did he have exceptionally short arms?

@msh210 his own cubits? Wow. Did he need that, or does this suggest that the bed was excessive for some other reason?

Here's the Rashi: chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9967/showrashi/true#v11

@MonicaCellio But what other reason? And if he had a large bed compared to his own size -- larger than he needed, I mean -- why would the Torah mention it?

I'm not seeing Mizrachi on D'varim on hebrewbooks.org....

@msh210 Well, some kings might be into ostentacious displays of wealth or power, though that would apply more to a throne or public space than to a bed.

@MonicaCellio Right. And if that is the reason he had it, why mention it?

@msh210 I'm wondering why the torah tells us anything about the bed, even. Iron (as asked on the main site), huge... what's the point? Rashi isn't helping me to understand this.

Ah, I see ibn Ezra asks sorta what I did:

"It can't be in his cubits, as then what would scripture be coming to teach? and also as then he'd not have the form of a man at all."

So he rejects Rashi, and says it means in standard cubits.

@msh210 I'm glad I'm not alone in questioning Rashi. But what does Ibn Ezra mean about not having the form of a man?

Surely Rashi understood the objection though: there must be some understanding of rashi that makes sense.

@MonicaCellio I assume the short-arms thing. For someone to need a bed that size relative to his own cubits would mean he has exceptionally short arms.

Onkelus says "in king's cubits". I guess that was a measure of some sort??

@msh210 ok, that makes sense. And I would hope there's a way to make sense of the Rashi. I'm at work with no books right now.

@msh210 hmm. Specific king or generic king?

@MonicaCellio No idea. It's indefinite: not "the king".

Different question: Moshe's speech in D'varim differs in places from the earlier accounts. One is with the appointment of the chiefs; here it says the people provided leaders, but in Sh'mot 18 it says Moshe chose them. Why the difference? Trying to make the people feel more empowered (you chose them, when they didn't)? I see he also doesn't credit Yitro here.

@MonicaCellio And in Sh'lach it says Moshe sent scouts on God's command and here it says the people asked for them. The midrash says that God's word in Sh'lach was a reply to the people's request; perhaps there's some similar thing here (not that I've checked)....

@MonicaCellio Where is "here" that it says the people provided leaders?

@msh210 1:13-15

vs Ex 18:25

@MonicaCellio From Rashi here it sounds like it was a joint effort:

in v.14 he says "if I was slow in ding it, you hurried me", and

in v.15 he says he convinced the candidates to be leaders

and in v15 he seems to be saying that Moshe attracted them (took action)

so the people nominated and Moshe talked them into it, maybe?

In v.13, he says that the local people knew the guy.

And "Moshe chose" in Sh'mot means Moshe concurred and carried through?

@MonicaCellio so yeah, that's what it looks like.

@MonicaCellio I guess so, yeah

@MonicaCellio Thanks for raising that: I never knew the process.

(...the process according to Rashi anyway)

@msh210 and I had assumed something but was wrong, so thank you.

@msh210 yes, but there's a problem in the text and he's giving us one way to resolve it, at least. And he's pretty credible in general. :-)

I love that Mi Yodeya helps to push me into the kind of close reading that I enjoy but haven't necessarily made a fixed time for. (For the parsha, I mean; I'm part of a study group that's going verse-by-verse over years, but we're back in sefer b'reishit right now...)

@MonicaCellio yep :-)

There are other differences in the retelling (such as the spies, which you pointed out). A part of me has always wondered how much of this was deliberate, recognizing that he's speaking to people who either weren't there or weren't paying attention -- maybe you tell a story differently to the kids than to the people who lived it. And if so, what's driving that.

(Speaking of differences, all these "you"s for "you did x" really mean "your parents".)

@MonicaCellio Well, if we say this version is accurate and the other is abbreviated (whcih is what we say about the scouts and the judges) then there's really no question why Moshe chose the accurate way: the question (if any) is why the narrative in the first 4 books chose the abbreviated way.

@MonicaCellio I take it as a collective 'you'. Like we say "we left Egypt and got the Torah" even today, even though none of us was there.

@msh210 True. The question is "why are they different" more than about this one -- this one is just the one in front of us right now that makes me ask. So maybe the other is abbreviated because the Torah was going to give us the fuller telling later, except you could just as easily say (were it reversed) that the retelling didn't give uss all teh details because we got them once. So a question of placement.

@msh210 We were all at Sinai according to the rabbis; now I wonder if we were all in Egypt. (The haggadah says 'as if", IIRC.)

@MonicaCellio heh, true.

@msh210 but when Moshe says "you did X" here, he is mostly talking to people who didn't do X. It could be a collective "you guys, including your parents", I guess.

Or maybe everybody was responsible but only those 20+ were punished.

We don't actually know the demographics of the desert generations. Did they continue to have children at the normal pace during those 40 years?

@MonicaCellio If you maintain that the Torah tells us only what we need to know -- it's not a general history book -- then abbreviation in the first 4 books makes a lot of sense. Of course, that raises the question of why most of book 5 is necessary at all.

@MonicaCellio You mean 'continue' at a normal-for-them pace, or...?

@ba welcome!

@MonicaCellio That's what I meant.

@msh210 Yes.

Hi @ba!

@MonicaCellio I'm pretty sure I something about this. Rashi somewhere maybe?

Alex would be able to give a source no doubt.

@msh210 Any time something is repeated, or told once abridged and once expanded, we have the question of why the torah told it to us that way. There must be a reason; I can see arguments for fuller story early and recap late or abridged early and fuller later.

@msh210 I'll bet he would. I miss him.

Well, now that the question has occurred to me I'll keep my eye out for an answer in Rashi. Or maybe I'll ask on main.

End of Parashat Hashavua' Chat #30 - D'varim 5772. Thanks, @MonicaCellio.