@ShmuelBrill My mind goes to the Holocaust, when surprisingly few Nazi guards were able to keep large camps in order. However, if a group of people could muster enough shared gumption, they could try revolts, as in the Warsaw Ghetto and in the partisans.
@IsaacMoses It's possible to postulate miraculous grouth, of course -- the midwives told Paro the women were having babies too quickly to intervene etc. It's a pretty different generational timeline from what came before, though -- almost makes you wonder if Mitzrayim is good (or Canaan bad) for fertility.
Regarding Moshe being an adopted prince: What was Moshe's position in Egypt. The royal family made sure he knew of his lineage. Plus, the brawlers were not scared of his position in the kingdom. He certainly did not have immunity for killing the task-master.
@MonicaCellio According to the Midrash, which is where we get most of these numbers, fertility was specifically increased by God in response to the meritorious actions of the Jewish women.
@IsaacMoses Amram refrained from having kids because of Paro's decree. What was the timing -- how long after the "death to males" decree was Moshe born?
@YDK In my Abarbanel here, I see he says that Paro knew not of Moshe's existence. It was his daughter's secret. But it seems he grew up knowing his lineage. He spent his first couple years being weaned by his birth mother, living with his family. Perhaps he remembered.
@ShmuelBrill Through Philistia, yes. But they were a largish group of powerful warriors; smaller groups might not have even figured they'd have a chance that direction
@Alex I'm wondering. Those that don't take that whole "valley of bones" prophecy in Yechezkel literally. Do they still believe that there did exist a group of Efraimite escapees who died in the desert?
@ShmuelBrill Historians say there were always groups of "Asiatics" coming in and out of Egypt (they're shown on tomb paintings and whatnot). So people might have thought Moshe is one of their children.
@jake Even most of the ones who do don't necessarily associate the bones with the Ephraimites. But anyway, the core of the story comes from Divrei Hayamim, so at the very least we see from there that some Ephraimites were killed by Philistines.
@jake If the two languages are close enough, then maybe the name might have been cognate - so a translation and a transliteration would be pretty much the same thing
To start an additional topic: I'm curious as to why Rashi, when he wants.to clarify who dasan and aviram are, tells us "the ones who left over the mon". Why not the ones who were part of korachs group? Why clarify their identity with a story where their names are not even mentioned (the mon)? For that matter, why even tell us that it was d&a at all? What was rashi's question?
@jake Right. Ya'akov did the translation. So, you're looking for people who were actually called "Robert" by their contemporaries, but the Torah refers to them as "Reuvein"?
So evidently Rashi must have had some source for this, but yeah, it would be nice to know where he gets it from. (I smell a new J.SE question in the offing...)
@IsaacMoses Someone (maybe it was R. Avigdor Miller) points out that they were great people in their own way, after all; they too had the emunah in Hashem to leave Egypt and go into the desert, and they too said "naaseh venishma"
Okay, quick new topic. All that stuff in Yalkut Shimoni about Moshe's whereabouts in those 40 mysterious years. To be taken literally as historical fact?
@Ami I'm glad to see you here in Parasha chat then. (Would be anyway, but even more so, given your clear interest in and experience with hemeneutics.) I hope you'll consider coming to future chats.
Avraham Avinu is often called "the first Jew".
When did he become Jewish. Was it when:
He recognized G-d?
G-d spoke to him for the first time?
Covenant Between The Parts?
When G-d changed his name?
When he had a circumcision?
When Yitzchok was born?
When he passed the 10th and final test?
Some...
End Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #6 - Shemot 5772 But please continue chatting away if you like. Next chat is in 167 hours. Register here if you want auto-notification.
@Alex Like many other midrashim that many don't take literally. (Full Disclosure: I've never actually read it. Only ever seen it quoted here and there.)
Avraham Avinu is often called "the first Jew".
When did he become Jewish. Was it when:
He recognized G-d?
G-d spoke to him for the first time?
Covenant Between The Parts?
When G-d changed his name?
When he had a circumcision?
When Yitzchok was born?
When he passed the 10th and final test?
Some...
