Conversation started May 31, 2012 at 17:35.
HodofHod
HodofHod
May 31, 2012 17:35
Begin Parashat Hashavua' Chat #24 - Nasso 5772
@jake @ShmuelBrin @DoubleAA Anybody have a starting topic?
jake
jake
Anyone know why we read the parshas nesiim on chanuka?
or "over chanuka".
Double AA
Double AA
@jake Because they're both Chanukei HaMizbeiach?
HodofHod
HodofHod
..what DoubleAA said.
@jake Also, see facebook.com/theMidnightRabbi/posts/142589059176954
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
I have a small followup from last week. Somebody (don't remember who) asked why sefer b'midbar begins where it does, when a logical break would seem to come a bit later after the mishkan stuff in this week's portion. I heard a drash that argued that sefer sh'mot is about people-building (making us a coherent people), sefer vayikra is about holiness, and sefer b'midbar is about nation-building. (cont)
HodofHod
HodofHod
can't load the link there, so no idea what it says
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
May 31, 2012 17:42
That doesn't address the mishkan stuff; my own thought there is that the nation and the priesthood must go hand-in-hand, to "entwining" them at the beginning of sefer b'midbar reinforces that. We can't just be a nation but we also can't just be God-facing and never interact with each other or with the other nations. Just a thought.
@HodofHod facebook is blocked for me too
HodofHod
HodofHod
@MonicaCellio Oh, no, the facebook post is an excerpt from another place. Here's what facebook says
>The Reading of the Nesiim on Chanukah Destroys Yishmael
On each day of Chanukah, we read the Torah’s description of the sacrifices of the
twelve Nesiim (leaders) of the tribes from Parshas Nasoi.
The ‘Targum Yonoson Be Uziel’

states that the sacrifices of our twelve Nesiim
destroy the twelve Nesiim of Yishmael.
The Zohar
explains: If not for the sacrifices of our twelve Nesiim, the world would not
be able to endure the persecution of the twelve Nesiim of Yishmael.
On Chanukah, with the reading of the sacrifices of our Nesiim, the Nesiim of Yishmael
jake
jake
@DoubleAA Was there a chanukas hamizbeach after the Hasmonean war?
HodofHod
HodofHod
it then links to emunas.com/audio/Shalosh_Seudah_Torah/13_Chaya_Sura.pdf
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@HodofHod thanks!
jake
jake
@HodofHod That's a little strange. And who are the "twelve nesiim of Yishmael"?
HodofHod
HodofHod
May 31, 2012 17:45
@jake I'm not familiar with that idea. Kabbalistic, certainly
Double AA
Double AA
@jake There was at least a chanukat hamenora. I'm going to guess that they had a celbreatory grand re-opening too.
Maybe Olah's were 20% off :)
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA I've always assumed that too (why worry about the menorah if you're not doing the rest?), but I can't prove it.
jake
jake
@MonicaCellio Interesting... BTW, how is Shemot about "people-building"?
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@jake the idea was that we go from this group of slaves that just exists to a people that, unified, stood at sinai. (Ok, so we were also near-unified with the calf; nothing's perfect.)
Double AA
Double AA
בראשית פרק כה

(יג) ואלה שמות בני ישמעאל בשמתם לתולדתם בכר ישמעאל נבית וקדר ואדבאל ומבשם:
(יד) ומשמע ודומה ומשא:
(טו) חדד ותימא יטור נפיש וקדמה:
(טז) אלה הם בני ישמעאל ואלה שמתם בחצריהם ובטירתם שנים עשר נשיאם לאמתם:
mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0125.htm#13
jake
jake
May 31, 2012 17:47
@DoubleAA Thanks.
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA do we have a tradition about who any of those "grew up" to be (in modern tribes/nations)?
jake
jake
@HodofHod I still don't see how chanuka is connected to Yishmael.
HodofHod
HodofHod
@jake Neither do I, but I couldnt check that other link, so I don't know what's there
jake
jake
@HodofHod ok.
@MonicaCellio Ah, I see. Indeed. In fact, Abarbanel at the beginning of Shemot brings several reasons why Bereshit and Shemot are separate books. That is one of them, IIRC: Bereshit is about the making of great individuals; Shemot is about the making of a nation.
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio I have only ever heard them described as the "Arab peoples". See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael#Descendants for some ideas.
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
May 31, 2012 17:54
@jake Does he say anything about Vayikra and Bamidbar? There does seem to be a difference in the people/nation in Sh'mot and the nation in Bamidbar and I'm wondering if that's real or just suggesion bias because I heard this drash.
@DoubleAA Thanks. I haven't heard anything more specific than Arab either.
jake
jake
@MonicaCellio Not that I remember. He does talk at the beginning of Vayikra about how the book is especially for/about kohanim.
@MonicaCellio It's funny. Now that I think about it, I remeber him addressing the overall theme of every book except for Bamidbar.
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@jake Huh. I wonder if he left it out or if it just wasn't memorable.
So going back to Naso, does anybody know what's special about the age of 30 for Levi'im? At 20 you're fit for military service but you're not fit for the mishkan until 30. It makes sense that spiritual readiness comes later than physical, but is there any significance to these particular ages?
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio The Mishnah in Avot 5:21 says 30 is the age of כח - Koach = Strength and 20 is the age לרדוף = to pursue.
If I had to guess, 20 has a wild physical strength which is useful in the army, but 30 is already more mature and controlled which is useful for divine service.
We see from the rules of not using metal on the Alter's stones, that we try to distinguish military and divine services.
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA Oh, nice connection. Thanks.
Another question. What did it mean to be sent outside of the camp (lepers etc)? Was this just "take your stuff and go", or was there community infrastructure? Did the manna extend outside the camp so they could eat? Were they responsible for their own defense? I'm wondering how this worked in practice.
Double AA
Double AA
May 31, 2012 18:15
@MonicaCellio The Talmud (Yoma 75a) says that for Tzaddikim the manna fell on their doorsteps, for In-Between-ers it fell just outside, and for Reshaim they had to go scavenge for it. So presumably there was manna that fell some distance from the people, and I think it is reasonable that the same would apply for the lepers.
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA Yoma is talking about inside the camp (even a tzaddik can be exposed to tumah) and you're applying that more broadly? Makes sense, just checking.
So what about shelter? If a family lives in a tent and one person has to go out, are there communal tents for this or what? (Maybe I should ask this on main but we're chatting parsha here, so...)
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio It doesn't really specify how far constitutes 'scavenging' (lit. שטו=scattered)
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
I have to drop off. Thanks for the chat all!
 
Conversation ended May 31, 2012 at 18:29.