Parashat Hashavua' Chat #22 - Behar-Bechukosay – Conversation in V'dibarta Bam

msh210

May 16, 2012 17:31

Begin Parashat Hashavua' Chat #22 - Behar-Bechukosay 5772

Double AA

@HodofHod It's msh210! OK this game must be too hard if he couldn't even recognize himself.

msh210

Welcome, @ShmuelBrin, @Alex @HodofHod @DoubleAA @Fred

Double AA

@msh210 It's only Bechukosay in Israel.

msh210

@DoubleAA I know.

@DoubleAA I did. Anyone: have anything to start us off with, re the parasha?

HodofHod

@DoubleAA but saying "Behar-Bechukosai/Bechukosai" would have been strange

msh210

May 16, 2012 17:33

@HodofHod Exactly.

HodofHod

@msh210 Careful, we're agreeing too much today. Anymore of this and people will start thinking I'm your sockpuppet!

msh210

@HodofHod True.

HodofHod

@msh210 Exactly!

msh210

Okay, seriously, folks. Parasha?

HodofHod

Oh, I see what you did there....

;)

Sorry, gtg. I'm needed for a minyan.

Fred

May 16, 2012 17:39

Ok, how about this: Reasons for the seeming redundancy in (25:55): Ki Li V'nei Yisrael avadim, avadai heim... (end of Behar)

msh210

he.wikisource.org/wiki/…

@Fred Thanks for saying something. :-)

Fred

@msh210 Yeah, I think I saw a tumbleweed.

Alex

@Fred Ohr Hachayim says something about it, although I'm not 100% sure I understand him: we are His avadim because our souls are sourced in Him, independently of His having taken us out of Egypt; and we are act as His avadim because we owe Him for having done so.

Fred

@Alex - Nice, thank you.

Alex

ateret4u.com/online/f_01610.html?dyn

msh210

May 16, 2012 17:47

@Alex Tough.

Alex

@msh210 ?

msh210

@Alex The piece.

Fred

Ok, he says that being taken out of Egypt is a more recognizable/experiential reason to motivate us to commit ourselves to His service.

... But that we have that obligation regardless since HaShem created us and is the Source of our being.

Alex

@Fred Which sounds somewhat similar to how Kuzari explains why the Ten Commandments begin with Hashem introducing Himself as the One "who took you out of the land of Egypt" rather than "who created heaven and earth."

Fred

Yes, good point.

msh210

May 16, 2012 17:49

@MonicaCellio welcome to the parasha chat.

Alex

I see here, in a footnote to one of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's maamarim, that he explains it somewhat differently: "avadim" represents our acceptance of Hashem as our master, "avadai heim" is Hashem imposing this on us. Which, I guess, might relate to the idea that doing mitzvos because of Hashem's commandment is greater than doing them on our own (גדול המצווה ועושה).

msh210

(If I may change the topic.) Onkelus translates even maskis (26:1) as "bowing stone". I saw recently that Hak'sav V'hakabala suggests that this is because he says it comes from the same root as "vachamas hamelech shachacha" and "vayashoku hamayim", going down, hence bowing. Oh, one's a shin and one's a sin? Whatever.

Alex

@msh210 Aren't there other cases where we interchange those for etymological purposes? Though I can't think of examples offhand.

msh210

@Alex Could be. I can't, either.

@Alex is there some d'rasha on sharim v'sharos (in Koheles) maybe?

Fred

We sometimes interchange sin and samech.

The root sin - chaf - lamed, for example.

msh210

May 16, 2012 17:57

@Fred Often. Some words are written different ways in different eras/areas, in fact, such as cheres.

@Fred Yeah, good one.

Alex

@msh210 There is also the derashah on ושמתם - that Torah is like a סם of life.

msh210

@Alex yeah, good

Alex

Also, speaking of cheres, there's the drash on שנים אנשים מרגלים חרש that they pretended to be pottery merchants.

msh210

@Alex Oh, there's the drasha on sam derech that reads it as sham derech -- in BK I think somewhere.

Alex

@msh210 Good point.

msh210

May 16, 2012 17:59

@Alex How old is that explanation?

Alex

@msh210 Might be in Yalkut - I'd have to look.

msh210

@Alex Don't bother; I was just wondering whether it's "real" (if you'll excuse me) or recent.

Fred

@msh210 - You mean the cheres one?

msh210

@Fred yes

Alex

@msh210 Found it. Ruth Rabbah 2:1. So it's legit.

msh210

May 16, 2012 18:01

@Alex Thanks.

Alex

Anyway, though, all of these are derashos. I wonder whether indeed there are peshat explanations anywhere in which shin and sin can substitute for each other.

msh210

@Alex ...which is what's being claimed by Hak'sav V'hakabala here.

Or should I say:

@Alex Sure! Hak'sav V'hakabala here.

:-)

Alex

Looks like I have to take off early; see y'all next week, bez"h.

Monica Cellio

I was wondering about the very beginning of the (diaspora) portion -- it says God spoke to Moshe b'har Sinai here. Lots of times it tells us God spoke to Moshe; why is it called out as being on Har Sinai this time? Does that mean anything? (Does it happen in other places?)

msh210

@TRiG, welcome! We're amid our weekly parashat hashavua' chat.

TRiG

May 16, 2012 18:06

@msh210 Which presumably means something.

Don't tell me. I'll look it up.

Monica Cellio

@TRiG weekly torah talk; higher jargon density than usual, probably.

TRiG

@MonicaCellio Is that possible?

msh210

@MonicaCellio Rashi explains.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 thanks. So his argument is that because sh'mita isn't covered in sefer D'varim, it gets called out here as "yes, this is from Sinai just like everything else"?

msh210

@MonicaCellio No.....

Erm.

Double AA

May 16, 2012 18:11

@AdamMosheh Or more relevantly: מה ענין שמטה אצל הר סיני? — Double AA yesterday

msh210

@MonicaCellio Because sh'mita isn't covered in D'varim, it gets called out here as "yes this is from Sinai, so so is everything else".

Monica Cellio

@DoubleAA what does ענין mean? (Sorry for my sub-par Hebrew.)

HodofHod

@TRiG der aibishter iz duch a kol yachol. So it is possible :D

msh210

@MonicaCellio "What relevance?", roughly.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 ah, now the repost of that comment makes sense. :-)

Double AA

May 16, 2012 18:13

@MonicaCellio It's Rashi's opening question on Parshat Behar, and it's exactly your question.

TRiG

Monica Cellio

@DoubleAA so I'm in good company, except he understands his answer and I don't. :-)

Double AA

@MonicaCellio It is also a pretty well known Hebrew phrase used like en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_of_tea_in_china

Fred

The Ramban explains that the generalities of the Sabbatical year were addressed previously, but the point here is that it's specific laws were also covered at Sinai...

... and this passage is followed by a reference to all the commandments

...which teaches that all of the commandments were likewise fully treated at Sinai.

Monica Cellio

@Fred ok, saying that all the commandments were given at Sinai certainly makes sense. I'm a little confused by the sh'mitta thing -- yeah, it's not in D'varim (according to Rashi; I didn't check & don't remember), but it would almost seem to make more sense to say that something that is in D'varim was b'har sinai. ?

msh210

May 16, 2012 18:18

@Fred I guess that must be his explanation of the midrash that Rashi quotes.

Monica Cellio

Or maybe I'm over-thinking. :-)

msh210

@MonicaCellio If all its details are in D'varim, one might think they weren't at Sinai, no?

Monica Cellio

@msh210 right, which is why it would be especially important to call out that, say, Shabbat was from Sinai and not just in D'varim.

Or is the idea that D'varim, being the summary, is also the list of "take-aways", and this is to warn us that there are other things that were given at Sinai that we have to learn?

msh210

"take-aways"?

Double AA

I don't think the agricultural themes show up in Devarim, but Shemitta itself is mentioned regarding its monetary aspects mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0515.htm

msh210

May 16, 2012 18:21

(Picturing Chinese food.)

Monica Cellio

@msh210 the key points to remember.

msh210

@DoubleAA But those are not here.

Double AA

And again by Hakhel mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0531.htm#10

Monica Cellio

@msh210 yeah, not like that, sorry. (And now I'm hungry. :-) )

Double AA

@msh210 Right, so not all the details are here. Some are added in Devarim.

msh210

May 16, 2012 18:23

@DoubleAA Are those further details or a completely separate mitzva?

Fred

"These are the commandments that God commanded Moshe to relate to the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai." (27:34) According to the Ramban, the juxtaposition to this section suggests that all these commandments were like the Sabbatical year - not just taught at Sinai, but comprehensively so. In the wilderness of Moav, by contrast, not everything was reviewed.

Double AA

@msh210 A question you can ask about all sorts of very parallel mitzvot: two tefillins, white and blue on tzitzit, separating and giving teruma, vidui and biur maaser.

To what extent are two mitzvot related and to what extent are they independent?

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

Monica Cellio

@DoubleAA 25 covers aggriculture & release, Dv. 15 mentions yovel & talks about economics, Dv. 31 is mostly about gathering & reading the scroll. The last seems different though concurrent.

But yeah, "somewhere in the middle" covers a lot of these questions. :-)

msh210

@MonicaCellio @DoubleAA Anyway, hakhel isn't during sh'mita.

( chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9995/showrashi/true#v10 )

Monica Cellio

@msh210 oh, I didn't know that. I thought the text meant during the sh'mitta, not just after it ends.

msh210

May 16, 2012 18:33

End Parashat Hashavua' Chat #22 - Behar-Bechukosay 5772

Parashat Hashavua' Chat #22 - Behar-Bechukosay

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