Conversation started Nov 16, 2011 at 20:28.
Nov 16, 2011 20:28
Suppose each U_alpha is connected. Form a graph with one vertex called v_\alpha for each U_\alpha, and with vertex v_\alpha connected to v_\beta iff U_\alpha intersect U_beta is nonempty. Prove or disprove: X is connected if and only if the graph is connected.
Could I get a hint for this? Not homework, just self study.
While I worked with the identity function and used a different measure to make the steps.
So it's obvious graph connected implies X connected, right?
What is U_alpha?
Neighborhoods?
See my prior chat at 14:26.
They are just subsets of X, which we then use to define a topology on X.
Martin: Oh, I took uniform measure over [0,1] and a step function. Your function is simpler (constant or identity?) but the measure is a combination of the Dirac measures. // Summarizing to myself basically.. :)
Nov 16, 2011 20:31
Yes, they are two facets of the same thing.
@Potato I can't find it. Link?
The uncountability is making this tricky. I want to say assume we have a separation U,V of X, and show this leads to a separation of the graph.
Suppose a collection subsets U_\alpha of a set X is given. Define a topology on each U_\alpha. Define a topology on X by declaring a subset V open if and only if V intersect U_\alpha is open in U_\alpha for every \alpha. I have verified this is a topology. Question:
Suppose each U_alpha is connected. Form a graph with one vertex called v_\alpha for each U_\alpha, and with vertex v_\alpha connected to v_\beta iff U_\alpha intersect U_beta is nonempty. Prove or disprove: X is connected if and only if the graph is connected.
I want to say take two of the U_\alpha, one in U, one in V, and show this leads to a contradiction, but I have a problem because the "path" of the graph joining of them my be uncountable.
@Srivatsan This is probably 14:26 in his timezone chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/2450870#2450870
Ah, I forgot we are all in different timezones. I restated everything above.
To be honest, I do not know how connectedness is defined for infinite graphs.
The same as for finite? Using finite paths?
Nov 16, 2011 20:36
Neither do I, which makes this problem tricky!
I can think of using connectedness from topology to define connectedness for a (potentially infinite) graph. What does that give us?
According to wikipeida, a path may be infinite.
although it's a sequence so it's necessarily countable
Ok, I thought that chain characterization of connectedness from this answer coud be useful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/44850/…
But I am not sure if this could help for infinite paths.
Wait, isn't a path from a point to another point always going to be finite?
I think so.
Nov 16, 2011 20:40
Ok then there's no problem.
We take a path from a U_\alpha in U to a U_
\alpha in V
and then we get a connected set, which contradicts separation.
It seems right to me.
So for the other way, we assume the space is connected, and the graph isn't
So there are two points in the graph we can't join by a path
For other direction, I believe that the answer I linked above could help.
Nov 16, 2011 20:43
Indeed. Let me look at it.
BTW this problem is taken from some book?
Sorry for the interruption: can anyone tell me if this fails to be a counterexample and why? X = [1,2] union [3,4] with the usual topology. U1 = [1,2], U2 = [3,4], U3=X all with the usual topology. (Should verify that this is indeed ok.) (v1, v3) is an edge and so is (v2, v3). So the graph is connected. But, clearly the original space is not.
// I have a feeling I am missing something.
Rick Miranda's "Riemann Surfaces and Algebraic Curves"
Ah Martin, but the U_\alpha aren't necessarily an open cover.
Answering myself: Of course, it doesn't work: U3 is not connected. :(
Its page 12 - here's google books link books.google.com/books?id=qjg6GOQaHNEC&pg=PA12
Nov 16, 2011 20:50
So I can do graph connected implies X connected, but not the other way.
For the other way, is it possible to speak of cuts in the graph that disconnects the graph into two components?
What do you mean?
@Potato I believe that for the other implication you can take Henno's chain lemma for the open cover U_alpha.
U_alpha isn't an open cover though
Oh, I see.
Nov 16, 2011 20:52
@Potato Sorry if I wasn't clear.
For example, if we take the real line, we can take the single U_1 (0,1) and define a topology using that, as in problem A on page 12 that you linked
where we use an arbitrary topology on (0,1)
So say we have two points, a,b in the graph, that we can't join by a path
consider the connected component of the graph containing a and the connected component of the graph containing b. These are disjoint by hypothesis.
But \bigcup_{\alpha\in C} U_\alpha will be open for every component C of the graph, right?
yes
but this doesn't necessarily partition the graph into disjoint open sets because the U_alpha may not be an open cover
Well I think you're done.
Why?
Nov 16, 2011 20:58
Ok almost done.
But I think \bigcup_{\alpha\in C} U_\alpha will be also closed for any connected component.
And thus we found a clopen subset.
Why?
Let U=\bigcup_{\alpha\in C} U_\alpha
The intersection U\cap U_alpha is either empty or the whole U_\alpha.
Depending on whether alpha is in C or not.
Right
This is correct, right?
The same is true for the complement X\U.
For all alphas it will be either the whole U_alpha or emptyset.
Indeed
Nov 16, 2011 21:01
So intersection of the complement with each U_alpha is open.
Complement is open, U is closed.
Ok so we take a connected component and wish to show the complement is open. The complement is open if and only if its intersection with every U_alpha is open. But this is now a trivial statement
right?
Yes!
I am pretty convinced that it is true. (Although I might have missed something, it is not very common for me to work with infinite graphs.)
it is morally correct
The book is on Riemann Surfaces; I don't think it would introduce a problem that required knowledge of something obscure about infinite graphs
Could you give me a precise definition of "discrete subset" of the complex numbers. See problem D on the same page.
Nov 16, 2011 21:06
It seems plausible.
Does it just mean no limit points?
I would say that if I take subspace topology, I will get discrete subspace.
Equivalent: Each point is isolated.
ah ok, then the problem is trivial
Question D seems to be example of 2-dimensional lattice: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_%28group%29
we just construct a sufficiently small epsilon and we are done.
Nov 16, 2011 21:09
It is probably good to notice that it suffices to show that 0 is isolated.
And to explain where the fact that w1, w2 are independent is used.
Err, how is that fact used?
For example it would not work for w1=1, w2=sqrt(2), but these two things are not linearly independent.
hmm yes but I am having problems making this precise
Me too.
Trying to think about the explanation.
Let our two vectors be w_1, w_2. Pick the one with smaller modulus, and let epsilon be half than that modulus. It suffices to show the ball around 0 with radius epsilon contains no point of the lattice.
Nov 16, 2011 21:14
I do not think this last claim is true for any choice of w1, w2.
Let's try w1=2, w2=2+i.
Than i belongs to the lattice.
And it has smaller modulus than w1 or w2.
we pick less than half the modulus of the smaller one
If I took 3 and 3+i, I would get lattice point smaller than one half of the modulus.
ooh, this is correct
So let's suppose that 0 is not isolated, so that it is a limit point
I'm trying to figure out why this contradicts linear independence
I've put here 3 pages of the book Stewart, Tall: Algebraic number theory and Fermat's last theorem
These links: http://ifile.it/y4e9icp/a_Page_149.png
http://ifile.it/cw94yhu/a_Page_150.png
http://ifile.it/26juldp/a_Page_151.png
There should be proof of this result for n dimensions.
It's getting late here and I am getting tired. So I am afraid I will not be able to help.
Alas, I must go. I will review the proof later. Thank you!
Nov 16, 2011 21:26
Ok
Just check whether you cen download the images.
See you.
 
Conversation ended Nov 16, 2011 at 21:26.