Conversation started Nov 13, 2014 at 1:26.
Nov 13, 2014 01:26
on a completely different note: any calc. of variations people here? i was trying to research something which i was sure i'd seen before, but haven't found anything directly like what i was looking for
@Semiclassical "Just ask; don't ask to ask" --->
fair enough
@Semiclassical will do, then
unreg user posting again, after two earlier versions of the same question, from a different account, were deleted from another SE site. Grr.
@Rafflesiaarnoldii do you think the new question restrictions will help the site much?
Nov 13, 2014 01:31
You mean the rolling Q limit? depends on how easy it is to get around it with new accounts.
Suppose I consider Dido's problem: With the perimeter held fixed, which closed plane curve encloses the largest possible area? The answer, of course, is a circle.
@Semiclassical So far so good.
in terms of calculus of variations, that result can be established by showing that a circle satisfies the relevant Euler-Lagrange equations
now, suppose i perturb the circle slightly (with length fixed still). then the area is no longer maximized, but it should still 'nearly' be so
Right, if the perturbation is small. E.g., in C^0 norm.
what i thought was that there was some way to make this precise, in the following sense: Can one construct an evolution equation for the perturbed curve (i.e. taking that as the initial condition) which will smoothly evolve to the circle?
Nov 13, 2014 01:36
like ricci flow smooths out things in geometry
Curve-shortening flow, as it's known.
i figured it's something well-known (p. sure I should be looking up phrases like gradient/geometric flow)
ah, that's another good phrase
though a little at odds with my intention, since i'd like the perimeter to stay fixed and the area to change
maybe assume there's some substance inside the interior pushing out, like gas in a balloon, and take inspiration from physics
Nov 13, 2014 01:39
@Mike: What questions restrictions?
@TedShifrin # of Qs allowed per month
^ This is not nearly as well studied as its brother area-preserving curve-shortening flow.
@rafflesia ahah, thanks!
Oh @anon ... How many?
I think Mike refers to the brand new rolling limit. It's not a uniform N per month limit, but something that depends on how previous questions were received.
Nov 13, 2014 01:40
tbh, i wanted to find stuff on that in order to learn a bit more. my real motivation was a little different
I do
@Semiclassical Posted
Well I tried sleeping.
I changed the denominator because the other one was wrong; if the limit is indeed 0 it doesn't matter (and asymptotics will only differ by a value of $1/32$) but this is still the one that actually counts natural density
kk. i may edit the original question to just say "hey, MikeMiller put up a question about a quantitative question about solvable v. unsolvable" rather than asking it directly, since i've already accepted an answer
Nov 13, 2014 01:43
I don't think that'll give any quantitative difference in views. People will notice or they won't, either way. Up to you, of course.
Unfortunately my title isn't as catchy
hah, mine had a pretty good hook
@Rafflesiaarnoldii: my 'real' motivation was: given an initial plane curve (not a circle), can i define an evolution equation which preserves both area and perimeter?
the calculus of variations connection there is a lot less obvious, since there's no quantity i'm evidently extremalizing
i was more interested in finding an evolution equation which has two invariant quantities rather than just one
@TedShifrin So how many different notions of connection do I have? I already know about affine connections from Petersen's class, I'm now learning about these hip Ehresmann connections... are these the main two? The first for vector bundles and the latter for principal $G$-bundles? Am I about to learn about twenty different kinds of connection?
@Semiclassical Sorry, never saw such a thing; nor can I imagine how it could work. Preserving one parameter is done by running the standard curve-shortening flow, while simultaneously rescaling. There's a seminar talk on such flows tomorrow; I'll try to remember to ask the speaker.
ah, thanks! there's also some questions which i put up which provide some context, let me find them quick
math.stackexchange.com/q/877459/137524 is the main one, math.stackexchange.com/q/882955/137524 for my attempt to think of it like a variational problem
still love the pictures in that first question, lol
@alizter You should go to sleep.
Nov 13, 2014 01:55
The circle with two bumps could be $C^\infty$ smooth if you use $C^\infty$ bump function.
it is that smooth!
yeah, but i wanted an explicit expression for such
what do you mean, an explicit expression?
an explicit parametrization of the curve
i.e. something i could plot/animate in mathematica
Nov 13, 2014 01:57
surely that's possible
Just use polar angle as parameter. And this formula for bump function.
Yes, that answer has exactly what I was going to say.
that example was piecewise defined, though. i'd forgotten that that was my other motivation
to find an example which was explicit and $C^\infty$ smooth
It's true that the example feels unsatisfactory: the "deformation" is locally isometric, i.e., no deformation at all.
Nov 13, 2014 01:59
it is $C^\infty$ smooth...
i'm probably not saying it right.
the example that got the closest to what i wanted was Christian's (the one i gave a bounty to)
Maybe you want the curves to be analytic
yeah, that's probably right. my failures of precision in language do cost me at times
Anyone here speaks Russian?
I don't care to look at Christian's, but it looks like it might be analytic
Nov 13, 2014 02:03
It is analytic. When the implicit function theorem is applied to analytic functions, it gives an analytic function.
yeah, it was. but it wasn't explicit, insofar as the dependence on the evolution parameter was concerned
isn't there an explicit version of the implicit function theorem, despite the name?
love that animation. gotta give props to String for that
This example probably doesn't have anything I would call "explicit" parametrization.
aye. note that christian's construction involved treating the radius as a function of polar as a Fourier expansion with only three nonvanishing modes
Nov 13, 2014 02:07
So yeah, a good question remains: explicit, real-analytic, constant-area, constant-length family.
right.
the link to an evolution equation was b/c i was hoping to find a linkage to a known special function of some kind
mostly because the two-bump example, if somehow converted into something which wasn't locally isometric, seemed like it would awfully reminiscient of this:
to be sure, that last bit of logic is definitely a leap
but i really want something like that to be true :/
 
Conversation ended Nov 13, 2014 at 2:12.