Conversation started Mar 25, 2012 at 17:29.
Mar 25, 2012 17:29
@tb But for a finite cyclic group $G$ it's not $G \leftrightarrow S^1$, it's $G \leftrightarrow \mu_n$ where $\mu_n$ is the group of $n$-th roots of unity, right?
(Assuming $|G| = n$.)
@ymar How is it going ?
=)
@N3buchadnezzar Everything's fine, thanks. :)
Still integrating?
I have to do philosophy!
It blows!
Mar 25, 2012 17:41
Philosophy is the most boring thing people have invented.
@ymar Can one invent philosophy?
@N3buchadnezzar Sure, I can but I don't want to!
I want to differentiate philosophy out of my course list... Because differentiation is the opposite of integration.
...
Since I live in India, I forsee a danger of "iyen" bug biting me! Why the hell is this guy crazy trying to but together some words in logical fasion and succeeding almost every time luckily?
hhh
hhh
$$\partial_{x}(\cos(\theta)x)=\cos(\theta),$$ is this right? (I am practising polar coordinates...) @anon
Mar 25, 2012 17:46
@ymar : )
BSD, Hodge and all of that.
@N3buchadnezzar Do you know that user named Iyengar?
@hhh: is $\cos\theta$ independent of $x$?
@KannappanSampath no?
hhh
hhh
Mar 25, 2012 17:49
@anon I don't know, I just switched from Cartesian $x,y,z$ to $r,\theta, \phi$ -- is it or not?
@N3buchadnezzar You'd be good if you just saw his profile and no more!
@hhh: If they aren't independent, then $\cos\theta$ is not a constant, no?
hhh
hhh
$$\partial_{x}(\cos(\theta)x)=\cos(\theta)-\left(\sin(\theta)(\partial_x\theta)\right)x,$$ or this?
@anon If dependent, then $\cos(\theta)$ is not constant. That is correct. So we have to have the other term -- but I am unsure here, well I will have the other term nevertheless or? (it is just a zero term in independent case)
well, that is correct, but not fully simplified, and probably not the right tact. just curious, was the original expression $\partial_x r$?
hhh
hhh
@anon No, I can show original expression later when I have done some calculations more -- this was just a subproblem...
Mar 25, 2012 17:54
If you don't see that $\theta$ varies with $x$ then I'm not sure you understand polar coordinates. If you rotate something about the origin then of course it's x-coordinate will vary along the angle.
hhh
hhh
@anon Yes and that is why need also the second term, yes that is right -- good to get it clear :)
@KannappanSampath I read some of his answers and questions, he does not seem that bad no ?
anyway, $x=r\cos\theta$, so $\partial_x(\cos\theta)=\partial_x(x/r)$, which you can do with the quotient rule and $r=\sqrt{x^2+y^2}$
you could also do that prior to the product rule, i.e. for $\partial_x(x\cos\theta)$.
Although he seems strange, I liked his question about Galois theory !
31.98, 32.06, 36.99, 19.10, 29.02, 27.32, 30.10, 32.50, 22.27, 28.38, 30.58, 35.74, 31.24, 33.71, 31.91, 28.19, 31.52, 29.46, 27.30, 21.72, 32.74
New personal best with one hand =)
@N3buchadnezzar ??? What are these array of numbers?
Mar 25, 2012 18:04
rubiks cube, one handed
I see.
@Matt How far is Additive Combinatorics done?
Hope to see you here as often as a normal week would bring you here! : )
@MattN I don't see a duality here. You can send a cyclic group $G$ of order $n$ to $S^1$ by choosing a primitive $n$-th root of unity $\mu_n$ and sending a generator of $G$ to $\mu_n$. But neither the choice of generator nor the choice of $\mu_n$ are canonical.
Meta discussions shed more light.
Hmm, MO-meta sheds more light. Is that better?
Well, ignore. I am grumpy today, I guess! I am irritated by what I see as happening....
Mar 25, 2012 18:21
Okay, I'm ignoring :) There isn't much going on on meta.MO, these days...
@KannappanSampath Sorry, was afk. I don't know yet. I've got quite a busy term this term. But I'll be doing CA again soon.
@MattN Hope you're OK. Please join us sometime. We have been doing some multiplicative sets stuff and found things interesting! : )
I will don't worry : ) Just need to get some stuff done.
:,( But for $G = \mathbb Z / n \mathbb Z$ I can define an isomorphism from $G \to \widehat{\mu_n}$ as follows: $k \mapsto (\omega \mapsto \omega^k)$, no?
Also, $\mu_n \to \widehat{G}$ via $\omega \mapsto (1 \mapsto \omega)$.
Yes, the latter is what you mention there.
I don't understand "canonical".
hhh
hhh
Mar 25, 2012 18:38
@anon Perhaps this q shows the idea I cannot understand here, I cannot understand the premise about the $z$ there with $\hat e_R$. I am uncertain whether it is a geometric interpretation or some other way?
Ello : )
Hi
@MattN yes, you can. The point is that there are choices involved in this isomorphism. There is no distinguished element $1$ in $G$ and there is no distinguished primitive $n$-th root of unity. You have to pick them. That's what is meant by "not canonical".
So what I wrote works?
And gives me the "duality"?
No, the duality is given by $\hat{G} \times G \to S^1$, $(\gamma,g) \mapsto \gamma(g)$.
In this duality there's no choice involved. By definition an element of $\hat{G}$ is a homomorphism $G \to S^1$, so you can evaluate that homomorphism on $g \in G$. *This* is the pairing (analogous to the pairing you have between a vector space
and its dual space).
Thanks. Poor me. You just turned my productive day that I thought I had into a puff of smoke. :,(
@tb Thank you.
Mar 25, 2012 18:47
One... last... diagram chase...
I thought duality meant that I can map a homo in one thing to a thing in the other thing and vice versa via an isomorphism.
Must... not give up... set theory lies beyond!
But you can show that there is an isomorphism between a finite abelian group $G$ and its dual group, but there is no distinguished such isomorphism. The point is that you can reduce to the case of a cyclic group and the map you wrote down can be interpreted as giving such an isomorphism. (by fixing a generator of $G$ and declaring that it is sent to $\omega^k$ - this determines a unique homomorphism $G \to S^1$ and every homomorphism $G \to S^1$ is of this form).
@MattN No, that's not the case. The dual group of $S^1$ is $\mathbb{Z}$ and the dual group of $\mathbb{Z}$ is $S^1$. You cannot relate those groups directly via an isomorhpism, but they are related by the duality.
@tb Yes sorry, that's what I meant. I know that, since I proved it the other day.
And that's why I thought I could just do the same for a finite cyclic group.
What do you mean by "the same"?
Mar 25, 2012 18:53
There is an isomorphism from $\widehat{\mathbb Z}$ to $S^1$ and from $\widehat{S^1} $ to $\mathbb Z$. So I thought by giving an isomorphism from $\widehat{G}$ to $\mu_n$ and from $\widehat{\mu_n}$ to $G$ I get my duality.
Well, that is true but maybe I misread your notation and you were right all along. So you write $\mu_n$ for $\widehat{\mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z}}$?
No, I'm using $\mu_n$ for the group of roots of unity.
I also replaced $S^1$ with $\mu_n$.
Because I can't map $\widehat{\mathbb Z / n \mathbb Z}$ bijectively to $S^1$.
Well, the dream of getting both silver and bronze specialist badges at once is dead. No way I can fill 15 answers to previously unanswered questions in the next few days.
Thanks Teddy, I think I need to think about it some more.
hhh
hhh
@anon I tried other problem, I feel I am doing things the hard way -- is there any simpler way for this?
Mar 25, 2012 19:01
@MattN I think you got it quite right, but you're putting it a bit confusingly. Fix a a primitive root of unity $\omega$ in order to identify $\mu_n = \langle \omega \rangle$. Now a homomorphism $\mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z} \to S^1$ is determined by $1 \mapsto \omega^k$ and every such homomorphism is of this form.
hhh
hhh
@anon I am trying to calculate $\nabla\cdot\bar{F}$ in the paper with polar coordinates.
Conversely, every homomorphism $\mu_n \to S^1$ is determined by what it does on $\omega$ and it must send $\omega$ to $\omega^k$. If $k \equiv l \pmod n$ then $\omega^k = \omega^l$, so such a homomorphism is determined by an element of $G$. This gives you an identification of $\hat{\mu}_n$ with $G$ (or $\hat{\hat{G}}$, rather).
hhh
hhh
I think I could reuse $F=|\bar x|^2 \bar x$ somehow, thinking...now I am doing it in manual spaghetti, ideas to improve?
@tb Yes. Except for I write $1 \mapsto \omega$ for any old $\omega$ in $\mu_n$. (instead of $\omega_k$, does it matter?)
@tb That's also what I have!
You just saved my day. : )
pheew
As I said, you've got it quite right. :)
Mar 25, 2012 19:04
Thanks : ) Now I don't have to cry myself to sleep.
@tb I think you'll enjoy this one.
@tb But then what was this about $\hat{G} \times G \to S^1, (\gamma,g) \mapsto \gamma(g)$?
@MattN that is the actual duality. By picking generators of $\hat{G} = \langle \omega \rangle$ and $G = \langle x \rangle$ (here $G$ is finite cyclic) you sort of "coordinatize" this duality.
@AsafKaragila I think, I would like that to be granted!
@AsafKaragila Supersized font is also quite annoying. It makes my chat move around. Of course, now that I said this you'll have to reply to this message with a supersized font message.
Mar 25, 2012 19:08
@MattN Hah, no time for that. Must chase this diagram until the sun goes down in Japan.
Supersized font, however, is a product of LaTeX so the chat has no control over that.
Plus, it's a way for me to express myself when I have finished with the Whitehead assignment. :-P
@MattN what is really going on is that the duality gives you a map $G \to \hat{\hat{G}}$ and Pontryagin's theorem tells you that this is an isomorphism. You make this isomorphism explicit by fixing generators.
ymar has a nice rep. 2000 rep points! But I am not sure if this qualifies as nice!
Thanks. I need to let this sink in. I don't really see what the actual duality is doing yet.
I mean I see what it's doing: it's evaluating a character.
But I don't yet see what this has to do with the two isomorphisms.
Remember what is going on for vector spaces: you have a pairing $V^\ast \times V \to \mathbb{R}$ given by $(\varphi,x) \mapsto \varphi(x)$. This gives you a map $V \to V^{\ast\ast}$ by sending $v$ to evaluation at $v$.
Yes.
Oh.
@tb Thanks : )
leo
leo
Mar 25, 2012 19:17
@MattN: I guess you can see now that you do exactly the same thing when you identify $\mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z}$ with $\hat{\mu}_n$.
@leo heh, thanks :)
leo
leo
:-)
(-:
@tb I started doing the section called $\S$Diagrams from Bourbaki. I have a doubt. Can you help me delete a brain glitch, I have had?
delete the glitch?
But shoot!
If I have a two squares sharing an edge as my diagram, I would like to clarify what would it mean for it to be commutative.
So, I'll call the maps like $f,g$; $a,b,c$ and $l,m$
Mar 25, 2012 19:21
@hhh: Sorry I was eating breakfast. I'll take a look.
Something like
$$ \begin{array}{c}
\widehat{\mu_n} \times \mu_n \to S^1 \\
(\omega \mapsto \omega^k, \omega_0) \mapsto \omega_0^k
\end{array}$$
@KannappanSampath so, $f$ and $g$ are horizontal and composable, as well as $l,m$ and the vertical maps are $a,b,c$?
(and point downwards, say?)
@tb Yes. Right.
And then something similar for $\mathbb Z / n \mathbb Z$.
@MattN this looks good :)
Mar 25, 2012 19:23
phew
Thanks : )
 
Conversation ended Mar 25, 2012 at 19:23.