Conversation started Dec 22, 2011 at 9:28.
Dec 22, 2011 09:28
@tb I think I figured out why continuous and compactly supported implies uniformly continuous. For an epsilon and a point f(x) in the range there is a delta ball in the domain such that its image is contained in the epsilon ball. The collection of all these delta balls covers the domain and that's compact so has a finite subcover. Then choosing the smallest delta of all these gives the delta that makes it uniformly continuous.
I guess I could've looked this up.
@tb I drew a blank on tori, so I went for Barnsley's fern instead...
@JM Her Majesty will like it! Fern by a British mathematician makes it twice as appealing!
@Matt Yes, that's the basic idea. However, there's some fleshing out to do: why exactly is it that any two points that aren't more than delta apart are contained in the same ball? (that's actually not true, so you should phrase this a bit more carefully)
Dec 22, 2011 09:46
Maybe it works better by contradiction.
Anyway, I shouldn't be posting attempts of proof in here as this chat is unforgiving. I was going to delete it but then it was too late already.
The idea is fine, you just need to do a little bit more work: here's a hint
@JM I refreshed because this comment hinted that maybe you had changed your avatar to a fractal.
Oh, now I see I was right.
None of my torus experiments the past few days came out the way I wanted 'em (but maybe I'll use them in the future), so I got lazy and used one of my old Christmas avatar standbys...
@JM I guess the candy-cane torus did not meet your standards :-)
@robjohn Well, you did it already, and I was looking to make a slightly different version... :)
Maybe I'll try again when I'm not burned out on geometric transformations...
Dec 22, 2011 10:01
Have you been working with a lot of geometric transformations recently?
Yes, in playing around with tori. :)
BTW, do you render your tori in Mathematica?
@robjohn All of 'em. :)
@JM good, then I am not that far off the beaten track :-)
The "chocolate" one, the one that looked like a cage... those were all Mathematica -generated.
Dec 22, 2011 10:02
I thought that perhaps you were using some faster package.
@robjohn As it happens, Mathematica is now actually faster than POV-Ray... :D
@JM Are you using Mma 8?
Yes, I am.
I guess that is still the latest version.
I've had it for a while, so I wasn't sure if there was a newer version.
I think so; I'd think there'd have been buzz if 9 was coming out.
Dec 22, 2011 10:06
That's true. I am glad they came out with the Home Edition. I used to get a similarly priced educational edition from Academic Superstore, but getting it directly from Wolfram is good (in case I am without university discounts at some point).
@Daniil It was supposed to be x cubed.
@Matt thwak!
@robjohn Heh. Someone deleted my comment. What a funny thing to do.
@Matt ah, now it makes sense
Dec 22, 2011 10:12
@robjohn Yes! As you can see the comment that responded to it is still there.
@Matt I don't think that anyone but a mod can remove someone else's comment, unless that is a 20K ability.
@Matt Was your comment linked to the dupe?
@Matt you've become a victim of this feature
@Matt btw. did you see my hint to this?
Ah, t.b. has linked to the explanation.
@tb I was just typing a reply when I was flooded by messages.
Dec 22, 2011 10:16
@Matt or a "feature" :-)
@robjohn that was the intention :) thanks for providing it
@robjohn Of course it's a feature and not a bug. : )
@robjohn With how SE works sometimes, the line between "bug" and "feature" gets blurry...
@JM Yes. : )
@JM it's been $\color{red}{\rm (status{-}bydesign)}$ed
Dec 22, 2011 10:18
@tb space before the ed after the $
@robjohn really? it works for me
@tb Oops, I had refreshed my page since I had run the bookmark :-)
@tb Ah, yes, to get JM's new avatar. Now I remember.
@tb Oh, I see. The only thing that I missed was that my delta balls weren't necessarily subsets of the delta_i balls in the finite subcover and therefore the f values not necessarily contained in the epsilon balls. Nice.
@Matt If you are talking about the Lebesgue number problem, I think I remember proving something with the maximum of the set of distance functions to the complements of each open set in the cover. Note that the maximum of a finite collection of continuous functions is continuous. Find the minimum of this maximum and note that it is >0.
Dec 22, 2011 10:52
@robjohn Sorry, was afk. No, I was talking about my failed attempt to prove that continuous and compactly supported implies uniformly continuous.
How's your cold, btw?
Still quite bothersome. Thanks.
I've come to understand why people do speedballs.
I found how awesome rapid intake of caffeine and beer can get.
@Matt Choose $\epsilon>0$. Since the function is continuous, at each point $x$, there is a ball $B_x$ of radius $r_x$ centered at $x$ so that $|f(y)-f(x)|<\epsilon$ for all $y\in B_x$.
@AsafKaragila BOINGGG!!
@robjohn Yes.
Dec 22, 2011 10:58
What about Boeing industries?
@robjohn unbelievable, I also have it for the last 3 days
@Matt So you can cover the compact support with finitely many of these balls.
@Ilya rather annoying :-(
@robjohn I did that. Although now that I come to think of it I'm not sure why I need the finite subcover. I can just pick the smallest delta in the original cover.
@Matt uniformly continuous where?
@Matt the smallest $\delta$? there are infinitely many, the infimum might be 0.
Dec 22, 2011 11:01
@Ilya On $X$ if $f \in C_c ( X)$.
@Matt at some point you will have to use that your function has compact support.
@robjohn Thank you. Nice : )
@Matt then you wouldn't need compactness, which is crucial - see Rob's comment
(now we're three saying the same :))
@Matt but then you must resort to the Lebesgue number idea...
so that if two points are close enough they are in the same Ball.
Dec 22, 2011 11:03
@tb ))
X isn't compact but I'm doing the argument on the support of f.
@tb Three is an infinite integer.
@robjohn I thought I had figured that out: Pick the smallest delta in the finite subcover and then the delta balls are in the delta_i balls of the finite subcover so all the f values are epsilon close together.
Maybe I still don't understand it.
@Matt: Regarding your dating advice from the other day, I woke up this morning and remembered that between my first and second year as an undergrad I hooked up with this girl from my classes (though she was in comp. sci.) and later I found out that she was dating someone and were in an open relationship at the time.
@AsafKaragila Sounds awful. How did that make you feel? (I'm going to be hit on again tomorrow, I wonder what I've done wrong to deserve this : ( )
Dec 22, 2011 11:08
@Matt Well, I was hoping to hook up with her again but by the time I found out they already closed the relationship and outed it (it was a bit secret at first...)
@Matt another way to work it is to cover the compact set with balls of half the radius needed to insure that $f$ in the ball differs less than $\epsilon/2$ from $f$ at the center.
@Matt then let $\delta$ be the smallest of the radii of the finite subcover chosen.
@robjohn I thought that that's what I was doing, except for the delta half bit in it.
@Matt pick any $|x-y|<\delta$ and then both are within $2\delta$ of any ball containing $x$ thus, $|f(x)-f(y)|<|f(x)-f(\text{center})|+|f(y)-f(\text{center})|<\epsilon$
@Matt choosing the balls to be half the radius required for $\epsilon/2$ is important to this method.
 
Conversation ended Dec 22, 2011 at 11:15.