Conversation started Jun 15, 2018 at 4:21.
Jun 15, 2018 04:21
So, here's something I've been playing around with; not sure how to classify it, but it's inspired by something from QM
So we have ($G,\{\rho_i\}$) and descend in symmetry along $\rho_k$ to get say in this case only one ($K1,\{\sigma_j\}$). Now I want to know if there is generic map from the set \{\rho_i\}/\{\rho_k\} to \{\sigma_j\}
@GFauxPas $\exists x \in \{\text{morning}, \text{noon}, \text{afternoon}, \text{evening}, \text{night}\}$ such that "good $x$"
Factory floor has another version:
Hello timezone
Do you have an example of two real continuous functions which are equivalent on $\infty$ such that one is unifomly continuous while the other is not?
@Rudi_Birnbaum I don't see a generic map, no, given that the restriction might decompose into different irreps
Jun 15, 2018 04:24
...bleh, trying to think of a good story description of this
@MatheinBoulomenos: A simple example would be that one part of this map is always the trivial representation of $G$ to the trivial representation in $K_1$.
@MatheinBoulomenos: I doubt this. But could that be in case it exists a peculiarity of point groups?
@Semiclassical It will probably be interesting without the story, I am curious
@MatheinBoulomenos: Lets call this very map tentatively $\lambda$ and try to analyze if it exists.
Well, here's one framing of it
@Mathein: maybe we need to look its inverse?
@MatheinBoulomenos: This is namely exactly the most important, if not the only important case where on higher-dimensional irreop
splits into more than one irreps.
@MatheinBoulomenos: Thats what is called Jahn-Teller distortion, and is one of the prime examples of "symmetry breaking".
Jun 15, 2018 04:29
Suppose you and someone on social media both like to follow the local teams: basketball, baseball, and football. (Note that I"m pretending you're American for the purpose of this :P)
@Rudi_Birnbaum mmm, physics
@MatheinBoulomenos: If it frustrates you just forget it ..
Sorry I meant @Semiclassical
reminds me of the Peierls transition in polyacetylene
Its the same thing
ah, nice.
Just solid state guys call it after different persons
Jun 15, 2018 04:31
Yeah, I figured.
Anyways, back to my silly story
And guess what? I am on the way to find a mathematical formulation for it. Maybe one of the bravest enterprises I ever started!!!
Each night, each of you choose to watch one of the games and report on social media whether the home team one or not. If you both watch the same game, then you'll both of course report the same outcome (which I'll call + or -)
@MatheinBoulomenos: So the point is that sometimes a higher dimensional irrep splits into several new irreps in the stabilizer. And I am now searching for a functional relation between functions of the two.
Actually, I think I'll change it from baseball to hockey if only so that the three sports have different first letters
i dont know the rules for hockey
Jun 15, 2018 04:35
So if you were to keep track of your various social media accounts, you'd find that P(first person saw the home team win, second person saw the home team win | first person watched hockey, second person watched hockey) = 1
or, in far simpler notation: P(++|HH)=1
with yoyu so far
@MatheinBoulomenos: say $\lambda_{\rho_k}(\rho_j) = (\sigma_a\oplus\sigma_b)$. Then I have conjecture connecting $\rho_k \otimes \rho_k$ and $\sigma_a\otimes\sigma_b$
similarly P(--|HH) = 1, P(+-|HH)=P(-+|HH)=0
and the same for the cases BB, FF
@Rudi_Birnbaum I see, that sounds interesting
But I need to go now
Bye everyone!
@MatheinBoulomenos: Can we stay in contact? Would you be interested in a cooperation?
Jun 15, 2018 04:37
okay Semi
however, if you watch different events, then there's some probability that you'll report different outcomes
so P(++|HB) needn't be 1, etc.
I got into a spat with my learning partner today, he wanted to write the problem statement using the standard basis but I claimed you didn't gain any insight or anything useful for the context of the problem by fixing a basis at all
@Rudi_Birnbaum hmm, that's not really my area and I'm quite busy, so thanks for the offer, but I'll decline
the only thing he "gained" is that now he has to write $e_1,e_2,$ and $e_3$ all over the place
but if you find me in the chat here, I can try to help
Jun 15, 2018 04:39
good job, you introduced more symbols
@MatheinBoulomenos: ANy suggestions whom I can contact?
now, to make things simpler let's assume that the outcomes are determined like coin flips
isn't that how sports work anyway Semi?
@MatheinBoulomenos: Thanks a lot for the help so far, I 'll also have to go! Bye
Jun 15, 2018 04:40
@Rudi_Birnbaum I don't know anyone who works with point groups or even real representations, sorry
so if I only keep track of the hockey team then P(+|H) = P(-|H) = 1/2
oh you mean a fair coin
okay
doing this in terms of coin flips to start with would probably have been simpler tbh
Jun 15, 2018 04:41
/shrug
feel free to think of it like that: each of you get to watch one of three coin flips.
if you watch the same one, you get the same outcome
and so forth
anyways. since the partner's choice of which game they watch shouldn't matter as to whether the coin is fair, that requirement further imposes that P(+|H) = P(++|HB) + P(+-|HB) = 1/2
law of total probability
well i suppose that's overkill, but yeah
exclusive events etc.
Jun 15, 2018 04:46
measure space axioms
it also shouldn't matter which of us chooses to watch which game, in the sense that P(+-|HB) = P(-+|BH)
i'll buy that
now, suppose you do this repeatedly and build up statistics on all of this
And you find the following statistics for the various pairs of games watched
first the obvious ones:
HH: ++ (50%), -- (50%)
BB: ++ (50%), -- (50%)
FF: ++ (50%), -- (50%)
what's not obvious are again the cross-cases. suppose they all work out like this:
HB, BH, HF, FH, BF, FB: ++ (12.5%) +- (37.5%) -+ (37.5%) ++ (12.5%)
that's 1:3:3:1
i've seen these ratios before, sure
not too surprising
well, you say that. but there actually is something weird about them.
so, some obvious remarks: H shows up as + just as often as -, so <H> = 0 and similarly for F,B
and since each outcome is either + or -, one automatically has <H^2> = 1
Jun 15, 2018 04:58
what is <H>
E[H]?
is this some weird applied mathematics bra-ket nonsense you're forcing on me semi
lol
just notation
why is <HH> = 1
because the only outcomes for H are + or -
i.e. +1 or -1
Jun 15, 2018 05:00
ah okay
so H^2 = 1.
alright
The cross-product moments are the important ones: ++ and -- both give +1, and +- and -+ give -1
so <HB> = 0.125(+1)+0.375(-1)+0.375(-1)+0.125(+1) = -0.5
and similarly for <HF> and <BF>
that's not obvious from the description of the experiment
cool
Here's the important thing: What's the expectation value of (H+F+B)^2?
well, you expand that out and evaluate it by linearity of expectation
Jun 15, 2018 05:04
okay
so that's <H^2>+<F^2>+<B^2> +2<HB>+2<BF>+2<FH> = 1+1+1+2(-1/2)+2(-1/2)+2(-1/2) = 3-3=0...
or, <(H+F+B)^2>=0
And that should surprise you, because that's claiming that a nonnegative quantity has an expected value of zero
is this from QM
inspired by it, yeah
the only way for this to be consistent would be that H+F+B = 0
But they're all supposed to be +1 or -1
Jun 15, 2018 05:07
well these aren't numbers per se, they're events
but [X] is a number thouigh
Right, and so is [X^2]
err <X> whatever
and the only way for E[X^2]=0 to be true is if P(X=0)=1
in particular, you'd need P(H+F+B=0) = 1
which can't happen since the outcomes are just +1 and -1.
what have you done to probability theory Semi
you broke it
What that tells you is that your partner can't be reporting their outcomes fairly, because they're too strongly correlated
Jun 15, 2018 05:10
O_O
Too many entries, will write the above in paper to better dissect it
immediately unfriends everyone on facebook to avoid probability paradoxes
that's weird
that set of correlations cannot be created by the two of you watching coin flips and reporting back accurately
lol
Now, this set of correlations can be generated in other contexts
falling asleep, ill have to hear this some other time. good night
For instance, take three coin flip variables X1,X2,X3 (outcomes {+1,-1} with equal probability) and take them to be independent. then they've all got zero mean, unit variance, and zero covariance e.g. <X1.X2> = 0
and then construct the variables Y1 = X1 - (X1+X2+X3)/3, etc.
you'll find that the new variables have zero mean, variance 1/3, and covariance -2/3
main thing now is that Y1+Y2+Y3 = 0
so you can have <(Y1+Y2+Y3)^2> = 0 just fine
@GFauxPas night
Jun 15, 2018 05:27
Games = {H,B,F}, Outcomes = {+,-}
Let X,Y in Games, a,b in Outcomes
Suppose: X=Y, a=b: P(ab|XY)=1
Suppose X=/=Y, a=/=b
P(+|X)=P(-|X)=1/2
P(+|X) = P(++|XY) + P(+-|XY) = 1/2
P(ab|XY)=P(ba|YX)
HB, BH, HF, FH, BF, FB: ++ (12.5%) +- (37.5%) -+ (37.5%) ++ (12.5%)
<X>=0
<X^2>=1
<XY>=0.125(+1)+0.375(-1)+0.375(-1)+0.125(+1)=-0.5
<(H+F+B)^2>=0
<X^2>=0 => P(X=0)=1
=> P(H+F+B=0) = 1
So... I am guessing, the source of the correlation is the reporting here?
> what's not obvious are again the cross-cases. suppose they all work out like this:
HB, BH, HF, FH, BF, FB: ++ (12.5%) +- (37.5%) -+ (37.5%) ++ (12.5%)
hmm..., so that means:
$$\frac{1}{2\sqrt{2}}\lvert ++\rangle + \sqrt{\frac{3}{8}}\lvert +-\rangle + \sqrt{\frac{3}{8}}\lvert -+\rangle + \frac{1}{2\sqrt{2}}\lvert --\rangle$$
But, what is this?
Y1 = X1 - (X1+X2+X3)/3
somehow the new variables Y1,Y2,Y3 ae all shifed away from the mean of all the X variables and then the correlation can be produced just fine?
is that classical?
well, the outcomes in that case are different
you'll have (Y1,Y2,Y3)=(0,0,0), (0,0,0), (4/3,-2/3,-2/3), (-4/3,2/3,2/3), (-2/3,4/3,-2/3), (2/3,-4/3,2/3), (2/3,2/3,-4/3), (-2/3,-2/3,4/3)
(0,0,0) shows up twice because (X1,X2,X3) = (+1,+1,+1) and (-1,-1,-1) both give that result.
Jun 15, 2018 05:45
ah the Y variables can be greater than one
right
and can be zero as well
the point is that you can get a wider range of correlations when you don't restrict the setting as much
I recall one explanation on Bell inequality as some pressing button to light up lamp game explains how because of the richer structure of the operators that appeared in the expectation values (compared to just scalars in the classical case), it provide the wiggle room needed to achieve lager correlations thus give rise to entanglement
Actually, I wonder if your above sports example can be used to describe Bell inequality
Yeah, that's where this is coming from
In that case that is the easiest explanation of Bell's Inequality I have ever heard so far, without so many inequality symbols causing me to go BSOD
More precisely, this is a setting which Bell's inequality would forbid
Jun 15, 2018 05:54
yup, and thus illustrates what entanglement is without explicitly introducing quantum jargon, thus such example can reel the audience in quickly
yep
To get Bell's inequality, note that the outcomes of the games are intended to be some random vector $(X_1,X_2,X_3)=(\pm 1,\pm 1,\pm 1)$
in order for the outcomes to not show any bias, you need +++ and --- to show up equally often
and similarly for the pairs {+--, -++}, {-+-,+-+} , {--+,++-}
if you now consider the products, you see that the three pairwise products are +1 for +++ and ---
whereas for the rest you have one +1 and two -1
consequently when you add the products together you get +3 in the first two cases and -1 in the rest. as such, the expected value of X1.X2+X2.X3+X1.X3 has to be between 3 and -1
whereas in the previous case the expected value of the products worked out to be -1/2 for each of them
Is there a name for adding the covariance that way X1.X2+X2.X3+X1.X3, I don't know how is this particular expression is motivated?
well, note that p12 = <X1.X2> in this case defines the correlation coefficient of X1 and X2. (the mean values of X1,X2 are zero and their stddev's are one, so the usual definition simplifies a bit)
so the point is to look at c12+c23+c13
however, the motivation is a bit harder to explain. I guess you can partly relate it to what I was doing earlier re: (X1+X2+X3)^2
i.e. the expected values of X1^2, X2^3, X3^2 are all 1, so the expected value of their squared sum is determined by the sum of those product-moments
<H^2>+<F^2>+<B^2> +2<HB>+2<BF>+2<FH> hmmm, it feels like the expression X1.X2+X2.X3+X1.X3 is summing up all the correlations that are present in the system
3
Q: Meaning of covariance matrix row sums

user2303Say I have an $n \times n$ covariance matrix for a sample set of $n$ random variables. Is there any meaning if the sum of the rows of this matrix? Is it a meaningful measurement of the contribution of each random variable to the variance of sum of the random variables?

sounds like it, so the entrywise sum of a covariance matrix sort of keep track of the total correlations present
Jun 15, 2018 06:09
anyways
the main point is that, if you only work with sets of games whose outcomes are +1/-1, then the pairwise correlations are constrained more than they'd be otherwise
Right
otoh, you can instead take into account the fact that the partner may know what game you choose to watch
yup, that corresponds to extra correlations that is not taken account of (corresponds to nonlocal hidden variables in the QM case)
well, technically it's a bit stronger than that
suppose, for instance, that they doctored the correlations so that you had <HB>=<BF>=<FH> = -1
you could have any of those individually, but together they'd imply <(H+B+F)^2> = 1+1+1-2-2-2=-3
which is impossible for any set of random variables
Sounds like that is going into PR boxes territory
3
Q: Difference between PR correlations and entanglement correlations?

Secret(As pointed out by helpful users, one of the bolded claims is interpretation dependent. Therefore, unless otherwise specified, Copenhagen interpretation is used throughout) Recall that for classical correlations, the observables are already determined even before a measurement, and thus knowing ...

Jun 15, 2018 06:14
That's exactly what it is.
Note that, in the case of the Y1,Y2,Y3 example, that knowing the outcomes of Y1 and Y2 is enough to deduce Y3
yup because Y1+Y2+Y3=0
right
so the outcomes are not independent and therefore they can't be explained by three local (i.e. independent) hidden variables
once I know what Y1 and Y2 were, I'd instantaneously be able to deduce Y3
if you're finding this interesting, you might try tracking down Jeffrey Bub's book Bananaworld
it uses a different framing device than what I'm giving, but the approach is similar apparently
(I know this stuff more second-hand)
Hello!!

We have the ring $R=\mathbb{Z}_5[x]$ and the element $b=(x-4)(x-3)^2$ of $R$. Let $A$ the set of $a$ in $R$ such that $at=b$ has a solution $t\in R$. How can we determine the number of elements of $A$ ? Could you give me a hint?
Jun 15, 2018 06:20
okay, now I should sleeeeeeep
hmm, so I am guessing, the extra correlation beyond entanglement in the PR box is that equation AB=(a+b) mod 2 that forces both inputs and outputs to correlate with each other even though the inputs can be randomly chosen between 0 or 1
 
Conversation ended Jun 15, 2018 at 6:21.