Conversation started Aug 1, 2015 at 4:55.
Anonymous
Aug 1, 2015 04:55
@snailboat - the copula is not really transitive or intransitive. Our grammar treats it rather interchangeably. In modern speech, it is clearly transitive ("The clown you saw at the costume party was me") - but in archaic speech it is indeed treated as intransitive. — akedrou 5 mins ago
Anonymous
I can see why someone unfamiliar with transitivity might say this.
Anonymous
But they could always pick up a book on grammar if they wanted to read about this stuff.
Anonymous
What reasons could we have to say be isn't transitive?
Anonymous
Well, be certainly takes complements.
Anonymous
Akedrou's example shows that much: "was me"
Anonymous
Aug 1, 2015 04:57
But that's probably not why they gave that example.
Anonymous
They probably wanted to show the difference in case between me and I: "was I" versus "was me"
Anonymous
Which is irrelevant.
Anonymous
Whether it's was I or was me, if it's an object, we should be able to passivize it.
Anonymous
We can't, though.
Anonymous
So what might it be, if not an object?
Anonymous
Aug 1, 2015 04:59
Our first hint is that it can be an adjective. Objects can't be adjectives.
Anonymous
Objects are generally noun phrases.
Anonymous
We can find a certain range of complementation that includes both noun phrases and adjectives, including bare role noun phrases, with verbs like become and be
Anonymous
These don't behave syntactically like objects, and they're generally semantically different as well
Anonymous
In CGEL, these are called "predicative complements".
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
@snailboat I guess that's what they meant by "but in archaic speech it is indeed treated as intransitive". -- If it's "was I", it's intransitive, but if it's "was me", it's transitive.
Anonymous
Aug 1, 2015 05:01
@DamkerngT. Yes, that is the best interpretation I can come up with.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
They're confusing form with function, I think.
Anonymous
If you were going to speak in formal English, you would expect that the case of both "him" and "I" match... Not sure why you're saying that it should be "It should be him, not I" — akedrou 10 mins ago
Anonymous
My answer isn't really very good overall. Maybe I'll edit it tomorrow.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Perhaps tossing this back to them may make them think, "Me and my sister went to the party last night."
But they could take it the wrong way.
Anonymous
Well, I can't teach them enough grammar in the space of a comment to make any of this make sense.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Aug 1, 2015 05:11
One problem I see many users have got is that sometimes they make an assertion too soon. They think of some examples, then generalize the rule, but they didn't really think it through, so their assertions may not be as good as they think because they rushed it, and it wasn't ready.
Anonymous
One important fact: English is not Latin.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Totally agree!
Anonymous
Just because Latin predicative complements have the same case as the subjects they predicate on doesn't mean the same must be true for English.
Anonymous
A-ha! I know.
Anonymous
The first two chapters of CGEL are available free online.
Anonymous
Aug 1, 2015 05:13
This is described as an example of a mistake in the introduction.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Oh! Right!
A-ha! In the first two chapters?
Anonymous
cambridge.org/assets/linguistics/cgel/chap1.pdf ← page 9
Anonymous
Well, start on page 8.
 
Conversation ended Aug 1, 2015 at 5:14.