Conversation started Jul 17, 2015 at 17:31.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Jul 17, 2015 17:31
@DamkerngT. Define dummy-it.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Wikipedia may be helpful...
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Bah, are you making me open a new tab?!
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Dummy pronoun
A dummy pronoun, also called an expletive pronoun or pleonastic pronoun, is a pronoun used for syntax without adding further meaning. An example is the "it" in "it is raining". Dummy pronouns are used in many Germanic languages such as English. Pronoun-dropping languages such as Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, and Turkish do not require dummy pronouns. A dummy pronoun is used when a particular verb argument (or preposition) is nonexistent (it could also be unknown, irrelevant, already understood, or otherwise "not to be spoken of directly"), but when a reference to the argument (a pronoun) is...
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
It is a dummy thingy, I get it it it it it.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
:D
Basically, you use it because it's syntactically required, not because it really refers to anything.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Jul 17, 2015 17:35
Hmm it.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
It's the it that is the it.
Anonymous
"It's raining." "What's raining?" "Uh... the sky? I guess?"
Anonymous
A dummy is something that doesn't change the meaning of the sentence.
Anonymous
Dummy = meaningless
Anonymous
> 1. She likes snails.
> 2. She doesn't like snails.
Anonymous
Jul 17, 2015 17:37
In sentence 2, we need to add the dummy auxiliary do
Anonymous
Because we can negate do, but we can't negate like:
Anonymous
> 3. *She likes snails not.
Anonymous
> 4. *She likesn't snails.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
@snailboat That's poetic!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Right, it's archaic.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Jul 17, 2015 17:39
Nah, that's wrong. It should be:
> Not she likes snails.
Or
> She no like snails.
Anonymous
Notice that sentences 1 and 2 carry the same meaning, apart from the negation. The verb do doesn't any add meaning.
Anonymous
It's there for a purely grammatical reason.
Anonymous
So we call it a dummy.
Anonymous
The same thing goes for dummy it:
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
It's cold today?
Anonymous
Jul 17, 2015 17:40
> 5. [That it's a forgery] is clear.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
It it it it it.
Anonymous
> 6. *＿＿ is clear [that it's a forgery].
Anonymous
> 7. It is clear [that it's a forgery].
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
I'm starting to hate this font.
Anonymous
In example 5 we have a subordinate clause in subject position.
Anonymous
Jul 17, 2015 17:41
In example 6, we move it out of subject position to the end of the sentence. This is called extraposition.
Anonymous
But example 6 is ungrammatical because it leaves us without an explicit subject in a finite matrix clause.
Anonymous
So we need to add dummy it as a subject.
Anonymous
That gives us example 7.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Hmm, so
> It's a sickness.
Is the it dumb?
Anonymous
It is not a dummy pronoun.
Anonymous
Jul 17, 2015 17:42
It must refer to something in the discourse.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Hmm.
Anonymous
It should be either anaphoric or deictic.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
I'm listening.
Anonymous
Come up with a context where you can say it's a sickness
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Well. . .
Can you tell me what anaphoric is, so I can confirm that what I have in mind is it?
Anonymous
Jul 17, 2015 17:48
Yes, in a minute
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
K.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M The anaphoric use is for avoiding repetition.
John was here. Where is he now?
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Oh.
No, what I had in mind was the diectic use.
I swear!
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
The diectic use would only be meaningful within its context.
"They met each other there last week."
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Yes, that's what I had in mind.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Jul 17, 2015 17:52
If you don't know where, when, who said that, you have no idea what those pronouns refer to.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Oh no, wait. . .I did have the anaphoric thingy in mind.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Probably not the best way to define the two terms. Just something off the top of my head.
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Nah, I'm familiar with their concepts, I just didn't know their names.
CopperKettle
CopperKettle
"A long time ago, there lived a little girl. She had grown up, and it was said that she became a barmaid, kind and generous." - I wonder if the Past Perfect is okay here.
(from a lang-8 post)
She had grown up and became a barmaid, kind and generous. - this looks a bit better, without "it was said".
Anonymous
Jul 17, 2015 18:08
I'm back
Anonymous
Anaphoric = refers to something previously said
Anonymous
Deictic = refers to something in the surrounding context
Anonymous
When I say "I", I'm using deictic reference. I exist in the surrounding context, and I can assume the speaker knows I exist, even if I haven't previously mentioned myself.
Anonymous
But if I say "I like my pet snail. It's very cute!" The pronoun it is anaphoric, referring back to something I previously said, "my pet snail".
Anonymous
The term anaphoric is also used more generally to refer to something that will be said later, although the term cataphoric can be used for this
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
Jul 17, 2015 18:11
@CopperKettle In a story, I expect past simple way more.
Anonymous
Sometimes people call this backwards anaphora rather than cataphora
 
Conversation ended Jul 17, 2015 at 18:11.