As/when/while and the progressive aspect

CopperKettle

Jul 22, 2015 13:18

1

When he talks of "enemies of the people", the analogies with Stalinist Russia and other 20th-century regimes are so glaring that you have to keep reminding yourself that the French Revolutionaries were having to make everything up as they went along, against a very different background from th...

(an interesting question of the progressive use of a semi-modal)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@CopperKettle You do?

And no, covering poop with blanket doesn't mean there isn't poop beneath it.

CopperKettle

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M My guess is either this person has some issues or it's a Artificial Intelligence being trained to use human answers for refining its internal lexicon

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@CopperKettle My guess is this person's Indian.

CopperKettle

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Well, they could be Chuckcha for all I care. I'm an internationalist. (0:

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Where is that?

Damkerng T.

Jul 22, 2015 13:22

I hope we all will maintain a neutral attitude toward human beings. :-)

CopperKettle

Chukchi people

The Chukchi, Eskimos of Western Chukotka (Russian: чукчи (plural), чукча (singular)) are an indigenous people inhabiting the Chukchi Peninsula and the shores of the Chukchi Sea and the Bering Sea region of the Arctic Ocean within the Russian Federation. They speak the Chukchi language. The Chukchi originated from the people living around the Okhotsk Sea. == Cultural historyEdit == The majority of Chukchi reside within Chukotka Autonomous Okrug, but some also reside in the neighboring Sakha Republic to the west, Magadan Oblast to the southwest, and Koryak Autonomous Okrug to the south. Some Chukchi...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Do they eat Chukchi too?

CopperKettle

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M What?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

They are Chukchi, they live in Chukchi which is beside Chukchi and another Chukchi, so I thought their food is related too.

CopperKettle

They eat raw meat, by the way.

So maybe that's why he/she is called meatie

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Jul 22, 2015 13:27

Bows down to the mighty internationalist

CopperKettle

(0:

Humans and chimps share 98-99% of DNA, so who cares.

Damkerng T.

PEU 239.2 @CopperKettle

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The eighth commandment says:
Thou shan't change thy uthername twice in a score and ten dayth.

Damkerng T.

> Progressive forms are possible to talk about temporary continued obligation. -- I'm having to work very hard at the moment.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Something interesting I'd wanted to share.

Damkerng T.

Jul 22, 2015 13:30

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Somewhere on Meta.SE?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Close. . .

in g-block elements, 2 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The eighth commandment says:

in g-block elements, 2 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

> Thou shan't change thy uthername twice in a score and ten dayth.

But it's an SE rule anyways.

Damkerng T.

How many rooms does Chem.SE have?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

A lot.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Thanks! But my guess was that "as they went along" drove the author to pick the progressive

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

A lot of them are frozen.

This G-block elements is for German dudes to talk there. . . Yeah I know, clever name.

CopperKettle

Jul 22, 2015 13:35

(looks up PEU 239.2)

Damkerng T.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M A-ha!

CopperKettle

Jul 22, 2015 13:48

Since have to is suppletive of must in the past (see below), there seems to be no way to distinguish in
the past between subjective and objective obligation imposed by the speaker or some other authority.
Sentence (a) may be the indirect version of either (b) or (c):
(a) Mary said that John had tocook dinner.
(b) John has to cook dinner. (= he is constrained by circumstances or an outside authority)
(c) John must cook dinner. (= he is constrained by the speaker)
Haegeman (1980: 5) suggests thatthe past progressive is used in place of the simple form to express

(from "the origin and development of HAVE TO in English (1991))

Hmm.. so "was having to" is close to objective obligation, while "had to" is allegedly more often used when the speaker imposes his will

Oh, this is reflected in Swan's PEU 361.1

Damkerng T.

Jul 22, 2015 14:12

nods

Another interesting thing related to bart-leby's question is the progressive aspect, when we use as/when/while-clauses.

Basically, we have 4 possible combinations.

> a) X does/did this, as/when/while Y does/did that.

> b) X does/did this, as/when/while Y is/was doing that.

> c) X is/was doing this, as/when/while Y does/did that.

> d) X is/was doing this, as/when/while Y is/was doing that.

I wish I could delete all the commas above...

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

Also, not all verbs are the same. This is about aktionsart as well.

CopperKettle

"Revolutionaries were having to make everything up as they went along" - to go along is an activity, so it could take the progressive

and to make (something) up is either an achievement or accomplishment

Damkerng T.

I think even have to can be considered as either a one single act or a condition that was going on for a period of time.

@CopperKettle A process to reach some achievement or accomplishment, perhaps?

But yes, I think we can think of make as a verb of accomplishment.

CopperKettle

Jul 22, 2015 14:28

So maybe "were having to make everything up" is necessary to express repetitive accomplishments as those revolutionaries went along

Damkerng T.

The problem is even go along is an activity, when being used in the past tense (went along), I feel like it's state-ish.

@CopperKettle nods -- probably not absolutely necessary, but the most natural choice.

CopperKettle

Maybe @snailboat will undo this knot (0:

Damkerng T.

I think Swan's simplified explanation works fine (it's temporary).

@CopperKettle nods

> They were having to make everything up as they were going along.

I think that alternative would work fine.

It just somehow suggests something subtly different.

CopperKettle

"I'm having to make everything up as I go along"

Damkerng T.

It looks a bit weird in the present tense, but I think it's fine in the narrative present too.

> "I('ll) have to make everything up as I go along (with him/her/etc.)"

I can imagine someone saying that.

CopperKettle

Jul 22, 2015 14:38

nods

0

Q: Why "book" is considered as a subject in the following sentence?

"Books which cost half price are sold quickly" Can anyone explain to me please why "book" in this sentence is the subject? And why it is not the object?

sentence-structure

Damkerng T.

Now it makes more sense to me. Thanks. — Yael 25 mins ago

Problem solved!

CopperKettle

But the comment above seems misleading.

"the books" is subject not because "the books are being sold"

Damkerng T.

Hmm... possibly, but practically, I think we can say what the comment says.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

I think native speakers would simply say "the books sell quickly", and even likelier "the books sold quickly".

(It's another sentence that looks odd to me in the present tense.)

Damkerng T.

Jul 22, 2015 15:29

Could be a good clue:

> We watched him drowning. -- He was drowning as we watched.

> We watched him drown. -- He drowned as we watched.

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