Conversation started Jul 22, 2015 at 17:21.
Damkerng T.
Damkerng T.
Jul 22, 2015 17:21
0
A: were having to make everything up

StoneyBSUPPLEMENTAL to CopperKettle's answer In the comments to this answer, Bart-leby asks whether as they went along should be cast in the progressive, as they were going along. GO, by itself, is what linguists call an 'activity' verb: it is atelic, having no 'endpoint' built in to its sense. Cons...

Several interesting points in there.
> GO, by itself, is what linguists call an 'activity' verb: it is atelic, having no 'endpoint' built in to its sense.
> Consequently, in contexts like as they went along, it is inherently continuous; casting it in the progressive is superfluous.
> [...] For example:
> - If you say They went to Walsingham, the simple past went has a 'perfective'† sense: we understand that the journey was completed, "accomplished"
> In older English, and in literary registers, that recategorization is rolled back in contexts where an imperfective sense is clearly intended—for instance, with as in the Elizabethan ballad As I went to Walsingham [I met a jolly palmer], which speaks of something that happened during the journey.
Somehow the combination as, went and along is enough to suggest something ongoing.
Which is exactly how Thai works, concerning tense (which Thai doesn't have) and aspects (which Thai may have).
​
Simulating Thai,
> พวกนั้นเคยมาที่นี่หรือเปล่า [they-did/have-be-here-or-not] -- Were they here? (or Have they been here?)
> พวกนั้นน่ะเหรอ เคยซิ [them-yes? did-sure] -- They? Of course.
If we always use did for the past tense, and think of -ing as another word, then Thai and English tenses and aspects are pretty much similar.
With different marked-unmarked emphasis.
กำลัง อยู่ เคย ยัง แล้ว are the keywords in Thai for the tense-and-aspects thing.
โดน ได้ ถูก รับ are the keywords for the passive in Thai
จะ ได้ มั้ง น่า ควร are the keywords for modality in Thai.
The list could use some revisions, but it should be a good starting point.
So, the two languages are not very far from each other in this respect.
But the marked vs. unmarked usage are so different.
Different enough that I guess virtually everyone cannot see the similarities.
​
Also, their most natural utterances for each specific occasion are not aligned to each other very well.
> Where have you been? -- ไปอยู่ไหนมา [go-be-where-come]
The gloss sounds funny, doesn't it? :-)
But that's how Thai works.
ไป ([go]) and มา ([come]) can be used together to suggest the perfective sense.
(If you went to do something and came back, it's implied that you've done that thing.)
 
Conversation ended Jul 22, 2015 at 17:44.