First Election Town Hall Chat - 2012 – Conversation in Drupal Town Hall Chat

user2334

Jan 18, 2012 00:07

Drupal.SE straddles two different worlds: the Drupal world, which is mostly on Drupal.org, and Stack Exchange. How do you see Drupal.SE balancing the two?

kiamlaluno

@MarkTrapp I think they balance well, as there are users on DA without an account on Drupal.org. They are two worlds that complement each other.

freiheit

/me contemplates stealing questions from another THC

in Server Fault Election: Town Hall Chat, yesterday, by Sam

If elected, it's possible you will receive some criticism of your decisions from time to time, sometimes quite vehement criticism, which you may feel is unjustified, how will you handle this?

user2334

@MarkTrapp I'm so glad you asked, Mark. Might I say you're looking quite good today? Anyway, I see it as being a useful resource for Drupalers who have bought into using Drupal for their projects, but haven't quite taken the leap into joining the full Drupal culture. More of the shallow end of the pool, to let people get help with Drupal without having to figure out the ins and outs of the Drupal culture.

kiamlaluno

@freiheit if I think it is unjustified, there is nothing to do. I would check if there is something true in what being said, and correct my behavior, in this case.

user2334

@freiheit Moderating involves making decisions that don't please everybody all the time. I know that, for the most part, people don't mean to attack a specific person but the actions taken in the capacity of being a moderator. As a moderator on Programmers, I've found the best thing to do is to ignore anything that's personal and take the content of the criticism at face value: try to address the points contained therein as best as possible.

kiamlaluno

Jan 18, 2012 00:12

Do you think that high reputation users should also be the ones that contribute back to the community by voting other users' posts?

user2334

@kiamlaluno Voting is anonymous for good reason: it's meant to be a personal, private action. I think, in general, people ought to be liberal with voting to pay it forward, but there isn't an obligation to use all your votes, particularly when you don't think there are enough posts to warrant it.

user2334

On Drupal.SE, there's not a lot of meta activity. How do you see the moderator's role in getting users to take a more active role in the community?

Rebecca Chernoff

Is promoting a small/new/growing SE 2.0 site a moderator's responsibility or the community?

kiamlaluno

@kiamlaluno I think that high reputation users should also be the ones that votes for other users' posts; if they are just receiving votes, but they don't vote, they are not participating with the community. Voting is also a way to let the OP understand which answer is correct, or which questions are not desired.

user2334

@MarkTrapp I think a moderator should do what he or she can to get people to engage in discussion about the site. If there's something that a moderator sees that should be discussed, they should create discussions on meta and find ways to point people to them. Generally through leaving comments on questions that would be affected by the discussion or talking about it in chat.

Tim Stone

Jan 18, 2012 00:19

Currently, Drupal Answers only has three users with more than 10K reputation, two of which are candidates in this election. If elected, are you prepared to shoulder the the bulk of the community's "janitorial" responsibilities?

kiamlaluno

@MarkTrapp The first role of a moderator on the meta site should be to answer to the questions, especially when the question is about something just moderators can know, or about something moderators did. Helping the community is also giving the right directives.

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff On a site like Drupal.SE, I think it's imperative moderators are involved in the promotion of the site. We really don't have a large active meta community, so moderators—who have said they're willing to make a larger commitment to the site—have to step up.

kiamlaluno

@RebeccaChernoff The responsibility is from both the sides. If it would be just moderators to promote anything, then there isn't a community behind the site. I think it is important to have a community, not a site driven only from moderators.

user2334

@TimStone This is where I think my experience with Programmers is an asset: while Programmers has had a number of 10k users, it wasn't until recently that community members took an active role in community moderation. I'm familiar with how to deal with a site where moderators are the primary moderation, and I'm definitely prepared for the work that entails.

kiamlaluno

@TimStone Yes, I am ready. I am already a site maintainer on Drupal.org, and I have similar "janitorial" responsibilities, including handling spam, for which on api.drupal.org, I am one of the few site maintainers that handle it. I also give to other users more privileges.

Rebecca Chernoff

Jan 18, 2012 00:23

There are a lot of drupal questions on Stack Overflow. How do you see the relationship between these two sites/communities?

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff Drupal isn't just programming: it also includes site building and theming (which —even though there's a lot of PHP—is generally considered not development in the Drupal community). The non-programming questions are definitely off-topic for SO and on-topic for Drupal.SE. For the stuff that really is programming—module development, really—I think it's important that users can ask wherever they feel most comfortable and think they are going to get the best answers.

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff If there are specific questions being asked on SO that are just not getting any love, I'd work with the SO moderators to see about migrating them to Drupal.SE and give them a second chance.

kiamlaluno

@RebeccaChernoff I think Drupal Answers and Stack Overflow can live together. By definition, Stack Overflow is a site for programming questions, and questions about programming tools; there are questions about Drupal that are not about programming, but about choosing a module or a theme for a specific purpose.

@RebeccaChernoff I hope more users will use Drupal Answers, but there also users who generally ask questions about PHP or other programming languages that would probably keep asking Drupal questions on Stack Overflow.

Do you think that being active on Meta Stack Overflow helps in being a moderator, and should be encouraged?

@kiamlaluno I think it helps, especially when something has been already discussed there, and there is a solution that is already used, such as flagging a post for reporting that its comments are obsolete. A moderator should know what the solution reported on MSO is, to avoid to invent a new solution when there is already a solution.

user2334

@kiamlaluno The big plus about having Drupal.SE part of the Stack Exchange network is that we can rely on the expertise of SE's work in building Q&A sites to avoid having to reinvent the wheel on a lot of issues. Although I'm biased, I think it's incredibly useful to have moderators who are active across the network, including Meta Stack Overflow, who can and do draw on that expertise.

Rebecca Chernoff

You run across a user who has a bit of a "rough" edge to him, in that he can be abrasive in the tone of his comments and answers. However, he does bring value to site in terms of knowledge. How do you reign him in without losing him as a contributing member of the community?

Michael Mrozek

Jan 18, 2012 00:34

Not to exclude @MarkTrapp, but I have a question for @kiamlaluno: I recall you being a pro-tem back in the day, and then you weren't anymore for whatever reason. Losing pro-tems before the election is somewhat unusual; is it something we should be concerned about?

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff I think it's important to discuss with that user, in private, how their actions are being perceived by the rest of the community. Basically, make it about the actions, not the person. You don't have to be mean, but it's important to make it clear that they need to find a more constructive way contribute. Generally, a quick word can resolve most of that issue.

kiamlaluno

@RebeccaChernoff It depends from how exactly is abrasive; if the user reach a limit that keeps other contributors away, then something should be done. Until that, the user's answers can be edited ti remove the abrasive tone.

Laxman13

What do you think is the largest problem Drupal Answers currently has, and how, if possible, will you work to alleviate the issue?

kiamlaluno

@MichaelMrozek The mistake I have done before was to think that moderators on a beta site were supposed to do more than moderators on other sites, to compensate the low reputation of the other users. I was really worried Drupal Answers could not pass the beta phase too. I am not anymore worried, and I understood that moderators are human exception handlers.

user2334

@Laxman13 I think the largest problem is people not knowing how it meshes into the larger Drupal culture: people are understandably confused about where to get support and where to devote their mindshare. There has been a lot of talk—and pushback—about considering Drupal.SE an "official" or at least "endorsed" place to get support, and there are many differing opinions about that.

kiamlaluno

Jan 18, 2012 00:40

@Laxman13 The largest problem is the participation of users in voting for closing questions, and flagging answers that should be deleted. I will do my best to incite users to vote when they think a question doesn't suit the site, or flag when they cannot vote for closing a question.

user2334

@Laxman13 I think the way forward is to try and ignore some of that baggage and focus on Drupal.SE as a standalone site where you can get great answers regardless of whether it's sanctioned. If you want to focus on the Drupal.org support forums, more power to you. If you want to contribute to Drupal here, that's awesome too.

Rebecca Chernoff

If elected, it's possible you will receive some criticism of your decisions from time to time, sometimes quite vehement criticism, which you may feel is unjustified, how will you handle this?

Tim Stone

@RebeccaChernoff points up

kiamlaluno

@MichaelMrozek I don't think is anymore a concern.

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff Dupe :P

Rebecca Chernoff

Jan 18, 2012 00:41

):

kiamlaluno

@RebeccaChernoff I will check if there is something true in what said. Apart that, there is nothing else that can be done, if not changing my behavior, when it needs to be changed.

Rebecca Chernoff

New users often are not accustomed to the Stack Exchange system, and sometimes struggle to present themselves properly, either in the way they use the site or their attitude. How willing are you to work with "problematic" users, and at what point do you decide that someone isn't worth the effort?

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff I think it's important that moderators try to assume good faith whenever possible. If it's their first question, try to make a heroic edit to whip it into shape. Provide copious feedback in the comments. Point them to resources like meta and the FAQ. If someone, even after all that, still doesn't get it and they're on their 4th or 5th post, that's when it's time to take action to protect the site's quality.

kiamlaluno

@RebeccaChernoff I wish to help as much users as I can, as I have already done. I think there is no point helping who doesn't want to be helped, but I cannot say at what point a user is not worth the help. I surely don't stop after 4 tries. Every single user is important for a site.

Rebecca Chernoff

What makes you enjoy moderating and janitorial tasks (as opposed to rep-earning activities like asking/answering)?

kiamlaluno

Jan 18, 2012 00:47

@RebeccaChernoff I enjoy doing it because I know I am helping the site growing, and the users using it.

Tim Stone

It can sometimes be hard to convince people (friends, family members, etc) who have never participated in the Stack Exchange network to give it a shot. Put on your marketing hat for a second - in a single chat message, how would you pitch this site to someone unfamiliar with it?

kiamlaluno

@TimStone "It is the right site for your needs."

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff In general, I like expressing what I know to others looking for help; whether that's through answers and the reputation game or through guidance about how a site runs. With Drupal.SE, I think there's a lot of knowledge about my experience with SE that I can impart on the community to help it take it to the next level.

user2334

@TimStone Stack Exchange is support for people who don't like to waste time. If you have a question, you're going to get answers and nothing else.

kiamlaluno

If a user complains about a flag not being handled correctly, asking a question on the meta site, what do you do? Do you reply to his question explaining why you marked the flag as not helpful (even just to say that you were wrong), or do you avoid writing an answer?

@kiamlaluno I would answer to the question, even if that would mean to say, "I am sorry, I misunderstood your flag."

Would you use the chat, if a user would ask you to explain something you did as moderator?

user2334

Jan 18, 2012 00:54

@kiamlaluno I subscribe to the "a flag is helpful if it got me to consider and look into the post" school of thought, so I rarely deal with complaints about flags being handled incorrectly. But regarding general specific moderation concerns, I generally look into the issue again, consult with other moderators, and see if there's a different way to approach to resolving the problem.

user2334

@kiamlaluno If there is, I'll do that and explain that it was a mea culpa. If there isn't, I'll explain to the user as best I can why the situation was resolved the way that it was.

kiamlaluno

@kiamlaluno I would use the chat, if that is needed. Chat could be the right channel for too localized questions with a specific user, and a specific issue. I have already used the chat to explain to a user what is considered self promotion.

Tim Stone

Currently, Drupal Answers has the third-worst percent answered score of the entire network (excluding Stack Apps) at 80%. Do you find this concerning, and what do you think this says about the community?

MPD

@TimStone better late than never... tim, i would say that unlike other forums, SE provides a way to get concise, peer reviewed answers to questions, with minimal noise

user2334

@kiamlaluno I generally prefer doing it on the meta-discussion site so that there's an easily accessible artifact for others in the future, but for quick issues or if a user wants to discuss something in great detail, chat works just as well.

kiamlaluno

Jan 18, 2012 00:57

@TimStone I think it means the community is still growing. There are users with only an account on Drupal answers, and those users are still understanding how Stack Exchange sites work.

Rebecca Chernoff

What is the difference between 'policing the community' and 'serving the community' and which side do you fall on, and why?

MPD

@TimStone there was a discussion on meta about this a few months ago... i see it as two problems... one, users aren't voting enough... two, experienced users aren't necesarilly reading newbie type questions

user2334

@TimStone Given the rest of the network, I'd want to get that number up. But we're pretty close to similar SE sites like WordPress & even SO, so I don't think it's cataclysmic. One thing that's taken hold on other sites are "hot topics of the week" contests: I think we could use them strategically to fill out some of our weak areas. I'd also use moderation to clean up some of the old stuff that will likely never be answered due to quality problems like being too localized or poorly explained.

MPD

@RebeccaChernoff a moderator's job is to do the job well enough that most people don't know that moderation is going on... that is probably closer to serving the users

btw, sorry i am late :)

kiamlaluno

@RebeccaChernoff Policing the community is saying to the community what they have to do because you said it. Serving the community is to guide it to how Drupal Answers should be used. I hope to be more to the "serving the community" side.

Rebecca Chernoff

Jan 18, 2012 01:00

just a few minutes left, any last-minute questions from the audience?

kiamlaluno

There have been days where the flag page was filled with automatic flags just moderators could handle. Do you think they are irritating for who sees them, but cannot handle them?

user2334

@RebeccaChernoff I think the purpose of being a moderator is to do what the community cannot: there are certain things a community should be capable of, and if they can't do it, moderators should be looking to fill in the gaps. A moderator serves their community when they do that job. They don't serve it when they are "hands off" or replace the functions of a community that's perfectly able to do it themselves.

Rebecca Chernoff

Last question:

Final thoughts from the candidates?

user2334

@kiamlaluno I like a clean mod queue, and I take that like almost to the point of obsessiveness: it annoys me on other SE sites where I see flags sit for hours or in some cases, days. If there's a flag and I have the time, I look into it. The average flag handling time on Programmers is 3.5 hours, and I expect to bring Drupal.SE to that level as well.

kiamlaluno

@kiamlaluno I think it could be irritating for users who can see flags to see the flag count shows there are flags to be handled, and discover they cannot do anything. For example, the flag for low quality posts, when the post is not spam, can be marked as helpful.

@RebeccaChernoff Thank you for your time, your attention, and your understanding. Whatever your vote is, vote; that is very important for Drupal answers.

user2334

Jan 18, 2012 01:05

@RebeccaChernoff I hope I answered everyone's questions thoroughly: if not, ping me and I'll be happy to discuss more. Other than that, good luck to everyone and thanks for the chat!

Rebecca Chernoff

Thanks for participating y'all! Good luck to the candidates!

First Election Town Hall Chat - 2012

Drupal Town Hall Chat

Participants