Subjective Questions & Lin vs Win

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 04:34

Uh... knock knock..?

HedgeMage

Hello, @Mehrdad

What's up?

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 04:50

Hey @HedgeMage! it seems like no one is here, haha

Are people usually in a different time zone or something? Last time I came here, there didn't seem to be many people chatting here either

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad This room doesn't seem to have caught on much yet. Sometimes there are 5-6 of us and we get a good discussion going, but more often than not it's pretty quiet.

Mehrdad

Huh, interesting, ok

HedgeMage

It's a catch 22 -- if more people hung out in here to chat, more people would hang out in here to chat :)

Mehrdad

haha yeah

HedgeMage

Anyhow, it's nice to see you. What are you working on tonight?

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 04:53

Well like, I had a question for a mod, since I'm unfortunately not happy with something that happened to one of my questions a while ago

just wanted to talk about it, to figure things out better

HedgeMage

Well, if you highlight the mod, he/she will get a notice when returning to chat or any SE site.

Mehrdad

hm... should I just @ one of them?

or is there a different way I should notify them? (not quite sure if that's what you're referring to by "highlight")

HedgeMage

I meant to @ them :)

Mehrdad

haha ok

HedgeMage

You could also raise it in meta if you want -- either works.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 04:57

yeah the trouble is, it's actually more about meta than the actual post

because the mod I was referring to kinda ignored me no meta (except to post an initial answer to kinda make me look bad)

er, that should've said "on", not "no"

@AnnaLear I was looking to talk to a mod, thought I'd tag you... if you happen to be around chat about now, that'd be awesome :)

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad Keep in mind that we mod types have a lot of irons in the fire -- it's possible the mod just didn't get back to the issue yet, or didn't know there were edits/answers/comments, in need of their attention.

@Mehrdad Mind linking me to the issue?

Mehrdad

Yeah sure, here's are a couple of links. So that it makes more sense, it'd be great if you read it from the _first_ revision of the question, then see the changes and the comments, then the meta post. Otherwise it might not make as much sense:
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/82519/why-command-line-is-faster-than-gui
http://meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/1694/why-this-question-was-closed-locked-and-a-question-on-a-mods-comments

Yes, I know mods are busy, and in general I've loved the mods on SO, and most of the ones on S.PE (even though I didn't always agree with them). But this one mod... I'm not feeling so great toward. :\

HedgeMage

Give me a minute to read through and maybe I can help at least make what's going on a little clearer.

Mehrdad

Okay sure, thank you :)

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 05:12

Okay... not knowing what's going on in other people's heads, of course, this is what that whole exchange looks like to me...

I think the whole ramp up was due to two factors:

1) some users (not just you) didn't quite grok some of the particulars of the SE format when applied to subjective stuff (i.e. the differences between ServerFault/StackOverflow and Programmers/Parenting)

2) Some of the existing community challenges in Programmers.SE led to a small problem getting out of hand very, very fast, and the combination of mods trying to do damage control and what can be interpreted as heated words on your part tends to not end well in general.

The good news is that if I'm right, it's 100% fixable :)

Mehrdad

Haha okay, that's great info :)
I have a couple of comments about it:

HedgeMage

No problem... I have a couple of clarifications but just keep going I can read while I type :)

Mehrdad

okay sure, thanks :)

HedgeMage

I'm a mod over on Parenting.SE and an active Programmers.SE user -- one of the things I've noticed is that it takes a lot more effort to keep these subjective sites on track than the more objective sites in the SE network...

Subjective-topic sites require a little more nuance to keep the quality up, because it's hard not to get derailed on matters of preference ("is emacs or vi better?") and "no real answer" questions ("what are some fun things to do with Haskell?") --

there's a very fine line between these and good subjective questions.

Mehrdad

I would likely understand it if they called the question itself "argumentative", but in fact, this wasn't the issue -- only a _single_ close vote was ever active at any one time (other than Josh's), and I think that, out of the two votes, only a single one was anything regarding this being "argumentative". Rather, even Josh closed it as "not a real question", so I'm having a hard time understanding that that was in fact the issue.

In any case, though, like I mentioned at the beginning, my question right now is more about my Meta post rather than my P.SE post itself: Josh claimed that I was…

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 05:24

I can't see deleted comments, so I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that the comments devolved into forum-like discussion/debate which is not what SE comments are meant for.

Mehrdad

The deleted comments were from my own post, though -- I don't believe he ever deleted any comments to any answers

HedgeMage

A rule of thumb I'm pushing on parenting is:

in Parenting, Jun 14 at 8:48, by HedgeMage

Comments are meant for trivial things, information belongs in questions and answers. If it matters a whole lot when they are deleted, we're probably doing it wrong.

So, don't worry about the comments.

I think I can help you get your comment squarely on-topic so it'll perhaps get re-opened, and I urge you not to care much about comments. They're meant to be trivial, or at least transient (like requests for clarification).

As for the meta post -- I think that as originally written it was seen as an attack on a mod, rather than a question about policy. I don't think you meant it that way, but if I came across it without the context I have now, I'd probably have seen it as an attack.

Mods on newer sites -- especially the subjective ones which are still very new -- can easily end up the center of too much drama that detracts from what the site is trying to do, and there's a tendency to try to stamp out the drama before it can get momentum.

Hi, @PavelShved

Mehrdad

Haha thanks for the offer :)
But like I said, it's not so much the question reopening issue as the Meta issue -- I don't know how to say this, but I __really__ want to know if I offended anybody anywhere. At the same time, I do find it a little not-so-polite if others make __claims__ that I offended people, without even pointing to anything that supports their claims (which is what what Josh did here is looking like to me)

Pavel Shved

Hi @HedgeMage =)

Mehrdad

Hi @PavelShved! :)

It's not so much that I care about the question, but I'm just not liking the fact that Josh didn't bother to support anything he said

and I'm still wondering what the heck he locked the quesition for, twice. (Close, I would understand. But lock? Which user did I offend?)

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 05:36

@Mehrdad Frankly, as originally worded, I doubt anybody reading your meta post "heard" what you had to say -- the tone was so overbearingly belligerant vs. Josh that they just reacted to "A user attacking a mod" instead of "a user who needs clarification about X"

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Yeah, I agree, that's quite likely what happened

HedgeMage

It helps to step away and take a few deep breaths, then go back to that sort of thing before you post it and edit for tone.

We lock questions all the time, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with the OP or any particular poster.

Pavel Shved

Hehe, there's an interesting @Anna's comment there: "I'm a bit confused as well. If a user has an issue with their post being closed, are they supposed to dispute it by opening up a general discussion?" Quite unusual for people that did not originate from SO: on most forums and social sites discussions about moderation are pretty much banned :)

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: I can't help but agree with you. But at the same time, given Josh's attitude and his tone in his comments, it was REALLY hard to do that -- some of his comments (which he deleted) weren't so polite either. But then again, I couldn't gain anything by copying what he did...

@PavelShved: Yeah indeed, the fact that Meta even exists is pretty awesome. :) That's one reason why I like SO/SE!

HedgeMage

Typically, a lock means either that the post isn't generating anything new that adds value to the site, but is itself valuable and shouldn't be gotten rid of, OR that there is such an influx of content to the post (some of which is crap) that it's beyond what the mods have time or mental ram to keep up with at the moment.

I'll often lock something for a couple of hours and leave a private note to my fellow mods to unlock either when they have time to sit and watch it or they think folks have had time to calm the heck down.

@PavelShved We're not a forum or a social site ;)

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 05:41

@Hedge: That's indeed a great way of dealing with things, I wish you had been the mod here instead ;)

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad I know it's hard to do (and we nerds aren't always known for our social skills anyway) but if you can learn to do it life is better. :)

That might have been what happened (I saw a lock that was unlocked again a short time after) but nobody waited long enough to find out.... we'll never know.

So... the question remains "what now?"

Mehrdad

@Hedge: Yes indeed, haha.
No, the lock that was unlocked was only because he told me to reword the question, which I did

it wasn't the same situation as you mentioned

HedgeMage

Ahh.

Not all mods are as comfortable as I am taking a hacksaw to other people's questions :P

I think you weren't sure what kind of edit was being sought, and that didn't help.

Mehrdad

Hahaha yeah I've seen both ends of the spectrum on SE

Yes, exactly

I had NO idea what they were looking for

so indeed, that didn't help :\

HedgeMage

just edits the heck out of stuff -- I've found it's easier, and if the OP objects they can allways roll back.

Pavel Shved

Jun 18, 2011 05:44

@Mehrdad I think you should understand that locking is not a personal offense. :) Think it this way: if even a moderator couldn't help participating in comment-war there, then how could he expect the other stackers not doing this?

HedgeMage

@PavelShved++

Pavel Shved

So he locked it :)

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad I'm going to take a swing at editing the programmers.se question -- that may help with part I of the problem -- part II is I think all the conflict will be forgotten in a couple of days when the next Programmers.SE participant starts a drama-fest ;)

There seem to be a lot of them on Programmers.

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: Interesting point...
@HedgeMage: Okay sure, thanks for all the help :)

HedgeMage

No problem!

Pavel Shved

Jun 18, 2011 05:46

@Mehrdad And, yes, he might not know what he was looking for. Because, well, he is not here to write questions for you, he's to keep them to follow the rules. If he can (if it's easy)—he edits them on his own. If he can't (i.e. it's not easy)—it's you who's to think about it.

For instance, I don't know how to reword the question; still I'm sure there's something wrong with it...

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: You don't need to know how to reword it, but can you explain what's wrong with it? My trouble wasn't that Josh didn't explain the former, but that he couldn't explain the latter either.

HedgeMage

I think I know how, but keep in mind I have a child-hacker with a profound speech disorder... I can translate a series of gestures into an explanation of data integrity concerns if called for :P

Mehrdad

lol ok

Pavel Shved

:)

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: ... i.e. if I know what's wrong, the editing is indeed my job, not the moderator's :)
... but the trouble was that big 'if', haha

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 05:51

It's locked, and I don't think my diamond-mod privs there will be fixed until next week, so I can't edit at the moment.

If you like I can stick an alternate draft in pastebin so we can work on it in the mean time, @Mehrdad

Mehrdad

Haha ok, thanks for the help anyway :)

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad sometimes it's so subtle that it's just too hard to formulate what's wrong.

I had a question like that, I guess.

2

Q: Why is it not possible to create a practical Perl to Python source code converter?

It would be nice if there existed a program that automatically transforms Perl code to Python code, making the resultant Python program as readable and maintainable as the original one, let alone working the same way. The most obvious solution would just invoke perl via Python utils: #!/usr/bin...

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Hm... sure I guess? The only issue is, I kind of already accepted an answer, so it would look a bit weird with two questions from me, one with an answer and one without

Pavel Shved

That one went from -7 to +2 votes and was unlocked and verified by one of the mods so it eventually conformed to ... uh, whatever guidelines there were.

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: Haha that's an interesting example... lemme look at it more

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 05:54

@Mehrdad I'm not talking about a second question, we can fix this one, we just have to wait for it to get unlocked to post the fix.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Yeah I realize that -- should I un-accept the answer and give another chance, with the previous answers still being on there?

Because otherwise no one would answer, since it already has an accepted answer

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad And just so you don't feel like a lost cause -- my first-ever Stack post was rejected as spam and my account locked to 1 rep. I was just hired by StackExchange Inc. for the community management team. We move on and do better :)

If you like -- let's get together a good on-topic revision that you like, then worry about answers.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Hahaha that's really encouraging, thanks :)

Okay sure, that sounds like a good idea

Pavel Shved

@HedgeMage "News Flash: StackExchange Hires Spammers to Manage Their Community"!

Mehrdad

LOL

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 05:57

@PavelShved Just for that I'm replacing all of your comments with treatises on how wonderful I am and promises to buy me chocolate :P

2

Mehrdad

LOL

(somewhat related, in terms of the news flash)

HedgeMage

ROFL quite related :)

Mehrdad

Also another one, while I'm at it:
http://xkcd.com/882/

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad What tasks do you do most and/or spend the most time on? I think those will give good context to the question.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: It depends. As a hobby (which most of my programming has been so far), I write random utilities I find useful, in either text editors (languages like C/C++/D/C#/Java, Visual Studio, Eclipse, etc.) and run them by F5 or something
Right now, I'm in an developing a web program at work, so that involves using Django to set up a server, connect to a database, etc... almost all within the SciTE text editor

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 06:01

Okay, thanks.

Mehrdad

I've also modified some programs to suite my needs a bit (e.g. Chromium, for which I used Visual Studio)

For launching regular programs, I use Launchy, as I mentioned in my question... still no terminal :)

and as for copying files and whatnot, just a regular find/move in the graphical shell, nothing fancy (unless I need to do something in batch, which happens rarely [less often than once every few days] -- in which case I do use a terminal)

Oh: Debugging: I use either Visual Studio or Debugging tools for Windows (if I'm on Windows). I haven't done much debugging on Linux, but for the things I've done, I've used Eclipse (also for Java on Windows)

At work: To connect to the build system and set up a project, I just use what has been integrated into Eclipse by the company -- no need for a terminal or anything (although I'm certainly welcome to use a terminal if I indeed want to)

@PavelShved: So are you buying us chocolate? :D :P

HedgeMage

Okay, guys, how is this?

gist: Let's fix http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/82519/why-command-line-is-faster-than-gui, 2011-06-18 06:10:13Z

cli-question.markdown

# How does a CLI-oriented programmer's workflow differ from a GUI-oriented one?

I've heard a lot about the advantages of doing less programming work in GUI apps and using more command-line tools (especially with regard to getting things done more efficiently). However, since I don't understand how my workflow would be *different* if I depended more on command-line tools, I can't readily evaluate whether there's enough of a payoff for me personally to invest time and effort learning a new toolset and changing my workflow.

Right now:

* I code some side projects in languages like C/C++/D/C#/Java using Visual Studio, Eclipse, etc., and run them by F5 or something.

* I'm developing a web program at work, so that involves using Django to set up a server, connect to a database, etc... almost all within the SciTE text editor.

* For launching regular programs, I use Launchy... still no terminal :)

* For copying files and whatnot, I use a regular find/move in the graphical file manager (Windows Explorer, Nautilus).

* Debugging: I use either Visual Studio or Debugging tools for Windows (if I'm on Windows). I haven't done much debugging on Linux, but for the things I've done, I've used Eclipse (also for Java on Windows).

* At work: To connect to the build system and set up a project, I just use what has been integrated into Eclipse by the company -- no need for a terminal or anything (although I'm certainly welcome to use a terminal if I indeed want to)

What do these tasks look like from the perspective of a coder who works primarily in CLI? Which parts become more/less efficient? Which parts of my workflow would have to change to get the most advantage from a change to CLI?

Wow, that "feature" in a way detracts from the purpose of a pastebin :P

Mehrdad

(I've read paragraph 1 so far, and it's brilliant.... reading the rest...)

Yeah it does look pretty awesome :)

A question:
The question begins with: "I can't readily evaluate whether there's enough of a payoff for me personally to invest time and effort learning a new toolset and changing my workflow."
But it ends with: "Which parts of my workflow would have to change to get the most advantage from a change to CLI?"
Am I changing my workflow itself, or am I changing to a CLI? That's a little confusing imo

Pavel Shved

Jun 18, 2011 06:18

@Mehrdad Absolutely. I'll buy you chocolate as soon as I meet you! (hehe)

Mehrdad

lol k

HedgeMage

what I'm trying to get at is If you hypothetically decided to change from using GUI primarily to using CLI primarily, how would you accomplish individual tasks, and how would your overall workflow change to get the best advantage from doing those tasks differently? Those two components seem like a good proxy for "What does the new, CLI-enabled @Mehrdad look like?"

Pavel Shved

I like this upgraded version, btw.

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad By the way, do you mind if I refer to this discussion in a blog post you've just inspired? I think I'm going to call it "Diamonds In the Rough: Finding the value hidden in apparently low-quality questions."

@PavelShved thanks

brb, teapot whistling

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Haha okay sure XD feel free to use it for your blog post :)

@HedgeMage Regarding the answer: I think I'm confused, but it's looking to me as though the question is asking me how to adapt my workflow to a CLI, not the other way around... for me, the question is more like: Should I adapt a CLI to my work, and why?

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 06:24

@Mehrdad I think where you lost people is that GUI vs CLI is seen by most (except dinosaurs like me) to be primarily a matter of preference, like a flavor of ice cream. Asking which is "better" won't get you anywhere -- so, we ask ourselves, what does that preference stem from?...

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad whether you should is totally up to you. StackExchange provides you information, not guidance.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: That's really interesting, because what prompted me to ask this question was someone at work telling me to use a terminal for everything, "because it's faster" :)

HedgeMage

Well, you look at GUI-@Mehrdad and CLI-@Mehrdad and see which seems like a more efficient, more comfortable way to work. Not actually having experience working primarily in CLI, you seek to have others with that experience paint the CLI-@Mehrdad picture for you.

It is faster if you have adapted to it properly.

If you haven't GUI is faster.

Mehrdad

Huh, ok, that sounds reasonable

HedgeMage

So, you'll decide if you like GUI-you or CLI-you better once you know what CLI-you looks like, does that make sense?

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 06:27

Yeah I think so, it does :)

Pavel Shved

By the way, @HedgeMage, where's the RSS of your blog?

HedgeMage

I'm a CLI addict, btw. I came to Linux before X was generally available and only use GUI for working with images, web browsing, and email. Everything else I do is CLI.

@PavelShved binaryredneck.net/rss.xml

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Hahaha thanks for letting us know, it's good to know which one you prefer :]
I'm glad at least you use a GUI for images though... it would've scared the heck out of me if you used a terminal for that too :P

HedgeMage

Gah, I feel old now.

Mehrdad

Lol XD don't

computers/programs get outdated faster than people grow old, you know :)

@HedgeMage: Just a note... "[CLI] is faster if you have adapted to it properly"... well, I have no idea, since I'm obviously not well-adapted to a CLI. But then, can't I say the same thing for a GUI?

Pavel Shved

Jun 18, 2011 06:33

Hm, my firefox has somehow stopped seeing RSS feeds of blogs...

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: It's probably just too awesome for FF to handle xD

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad I edited the last graph of this draft to be a bit clearer: gist.github.com/1032854

@Mehrdad GUI is more forgiving, workflow-wise -- there's not a huge difference in efficiency depending on how you approach problems or what your workflow looks like (within reasonable limits).

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad "can't I say the same thing for a GUI?" — It may not be true for GUI. Clicking a button after you've seen it can't take you less than 0.2 seconds. In CLI you generally don't have to observe all the options you have: you may just start picking one of them you need.

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad There are certain CLI best practices that drastically improve your efficiency, but if you haven't adopted them you won't get many of the benefits of CLI.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: That's a nice edit, yeah
Yeah, it's DEFINITELY more forgiving, that's one thing I actually pointed out in my original question (e.g. easier to mess up in CLI)
Which best practices are you referring to, btw? I'm kinda curious :)

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 06:38

For example, until Thursday when I officially signed on with Stack I was working as a Drupal developer. One of the most tedious tasks I had to do was change the perms on the various files and dirs in a Drupal install to correct settings for either development or production. In GUI, you can do it by changing them one file/dir at a time, or searching for groups of files/dirs and changing them in batch as appropriate...

However, in CLI I wrote a script that will do all that for me in one short command, and added it to my path.

Mehrdad

Were the permissions complicated? Because GUI's also have a "replace child permissions" feature that works well for simpler cases

HedgeMage

The difference between running the script and doing it via manually typing in the 4 compound commands needed to do it right is significant -- after the initial (15 minute) investment in writing the script, I save about 95% of the time needed every time I change those perms.

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad for any GUI there exists a task it's insufficiently sophisticated for.

For CLI this may not be true.

HedgeMage

Generally (in my particular dev set-up) I need dirs to be 750 and files to be 640 however in one subtree dirs should be 770 and files 660.

That's only four commands to do right in CLI -- but they are longish commands -- and one short script name is incredibly fast :)

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: Yeah I'm not claiming everything can be done with a GUI. :) The question is how often the rarer commands happen, though. For me, they're not that often; but if, for example, @HedgeMage: has to do that on a daily basis, then it makes sense for him to switch over to CLI entirely.

@HedgeMage: Huh, ok

Pavel Shved

Jun 18, 2011 06:43

find /one-subtree -type d | xargs chmod 750 — now show a GUI button for that :D

HedgeMage

Since I did this task about 50-100 times in a typical week, saving 4 minutes and 58 seconds of the 5 minutes it used to take means saving between 4h 8m 20s and 8h 16m 40s each week.

that's a ton of time!

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: What's `type -d`? Does it mean directory?
@HedgeMage: Yes I agree, that's indeed a lot of time :)

HedgeMage

It went from something I spent hours doing each week, to something I spent about 2 minutes on each week, because I wrote a tiny four-line script.

<3 CLI

Mehrdad

Haha ok :) It obviously depends on your workflow -- for me, that's not something I do often, but for you, it would be silly to do that with a GUI every time :]

HedgeMage

Exactly.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 06:48

@PavelShved: I'm not too familiar with how to do that with Linux, but in Windows, it's REALLY easy to do what you're doing with a GUI

HedgeMage

That's why deciding whether to switch involves first knowing what your workflow would look like in each mode (CLI or GUI) -- we're all different.

Mehrdad

just go to Permissions, Advanced, Add, and then change the "Apply To" menu selection, then select permissions and Apply -- it will automatically do that for all directories.

@HedgeMage: Yeah, makes sense

HedgeMage

For my graphic designer, for example, there would be little to gain from using CLI more. For me, there's a ton to gain.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Yeah, definitely makes sense

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad That takes a lot more time than fx<kbd>Tab</kbd><kbd>Enter</kbd>

grr that apparently doesn't work in chat

you get the idea :)

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 06:50

@HedgeMage: Not a lot -- it's still O(1) time, you maybe save like 20 s

[max]

but it's a lot less error-prone

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad well, maybe. I really don't know what's going on on Windows lately (i.e. in last 10 years).

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: Haha ok

HedgeMage

I last used Win in 1999

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Oh holy cow. Yeah, that tells you NOTHING about what Windows is like today, haha

HedgeMage

Though, I still support it for my parents and brother. Everyone else I tell to get a real OS or get support elsewhere :P

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 06:51

If you wanted to compare Windows 7 to anything, the earliest you can go back to is probably Win 2000

LOL

Pavel Shved

My last windows was XP. I used it mainly to play World of Warcraft. %)

Mehrdad

lol

HedgeMage

My mom and brother run XP, dad has Win 7. I've considered running the copy of Win 7 that came with my laptop in a VM so maybe Rosetta Stone would act less glitchy.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: In all honesty, I do want to switch to Ubuntu, if for nothing other than learning. And I use it during work. But certain things about it -- like the mouse sensitivity (in both my laptop AND desktop) and various user experience issues just make it a lot less friendly than Windows

Pavel Shved

CLI would definitely not help me with that :D

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 06:53

@Mehrdad Mouse sensitivity (like most things) is totally configurable.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Both XP and Windows 7 are awesome. NEITHER can be compared to pre-Win-2000 :P

@HedgeMage: Not really -- I've tried xconfig, but it's still not like Windows

or even close

the acceleration happens too early

HedgeMage

XP is evil. It's way beyond my mom's capability to keep it working decently and virus-free.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: How is the virus issue an XP issue though? :)

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad Because Win's deficient security model allows it to happen.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Honestly, it depends on the user. I've run for years without an AV, and the only couple "viruses" I got were because of adware

which was obviously my own fault

but other than that, never had any worms or anything get into my computer

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 06:55

@Mehrdad The only ones you knew you had.

Mehrdad

and sometimes I don't even update it

Pavel Shved

Actually, nothing would prevent a worm from stealing my credentials if I store it in my home folder in linux. Viruses, afaik, aren't the main problem nowadays...

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: I'm pretty sure I don't have any viruses on my computer right now :P

@HedgeMage: Then again, how can you be sure you don't have any on your own Linux computer?

@PavelShved: Yeah exactly. XP is no less secure than Linux -- it's just more widespread, so there are more viruses and stuff for it

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad because all Linux executables are only administrator-writeable, and we may be sure we didn't run viruses from under root user?

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad I wasn't a Linux/Mac/anything-not-win evangelist until I started working with a security related nonprofit some years ago -- if we couldn't track a child pornographer or credit card thief, it was because they were routed through a bunch of compromised Winboxen. that makes me angry.

@Mehrdad It's much less secure. When a Linux vuln is found, it's fixed. When a Win vuln is found, MS sues the finder.

@Mehrdad Win lacks filesystem-level perms enforced by the kernel.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 06:57

@HedgeMage: "Win lacks filesystem-level perms enforced by the kernel.".. huh? what do you mean?

Pavel Shved

@HedgeMage win does have filesystem peermissions. :) They're even more powerful than those on Linux. :)

(Well, than those we got used to using, Linux has an extension with better perms actually)

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad I mean that because file access restrictions are laid on top of the basic OS functions it is really easy for, say, Joe USer to run something that causes a registry change that runs some melicious code forever after or alters basic system files. In Linux if you aren't root it won't work.

(Barring something so rare I get to publish a paper about it then mock people publicly)

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: In Windows if you aren't admin it won't work either...

not sure how that's any different

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad but in Windows your life is miserable if you aren't an admin. %)

(at least, it was back in XP times)

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: On Linux my life is miserable when I'm not an admin

freaking password has to be typed every time

at least I can tell Windows to shut up when I need to...

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:00

@Mehrdad Then you are using it wrong.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Maybe, but I've been fine for quite a few years now :P it's hard to say what's wrong with something that's worked fine...

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad I meant using Linux wrong if you have that problem.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Oh. But then, how do I install anything?

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad sudo visudo, then add NOPASSWD: to the relevant line. No password required anymore.

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: Yeah I've tried that, but that still requires sudo

still annoying

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:01

@PavelShved That's not actually a great practice.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: If you know what you're doing, then why is it not great practice? If you know what programs you're running, then where is a virus going to magically come from?

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad Well, on a normal linux flavor you just su to root. You can tell Ubuntu (which is very protectivist in a way I find annoying, but which works well for my 8yo and non-technical mother) to let you use su directly, or you can just use "sudo su" to turn your current session into a super-user one :)

Pavel Shved

@HedgeMage yeah, a cunning virus would just do his stuff with sudo :D

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Yeah, but I have to do that EVERY time I log on

@PavelShved: Lol

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad sudo is not really intended for general admin use -- it's meant to be a way to allow select users limited admin access.

@Mehrdad Duh. That's much better than the Win model where everything freaking runs as root.

Security++

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 07:04

@HedgeMage: My main problem with Sudo is, I can't install ANYTHING without it, and some settings that need Sudo when changed from the control panel no longer need it if you change the setting directly with gnome-config-editor.

That's not security, it's just being annoying... if a virus is going to infect you when you install a program, it'll do that when you sudo later. Same difference.

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad You shouldn't be able to install anything globally without root access -- that's called security.

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad a virus can't just lurk into any sudo you make. The virus itself should be sudo-ed.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: So I can't use my favorite text editor because only my boss/parent/someone else has root access?

@PavelShved: But a virus can't just lurk into your Windows computer either -- the virus itself has to be brought into there by you...

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad You're looking at it wrong: My totally non-technical mother can't install a trojan because I run the box.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: She couldn't install a trojan if she had a standard user account in Windows either

not seeing how that's different...

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:08

@Mehrdad A standard user account in Win doesn't actually work

@Mehrdad Most programs fail to run

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Why?

@HedgeMage: i.e. like which program(s)?

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad games?

Mehrdad

@PavelShved: You can run Linux games on limited accounts?

[Wait, there are games for Linux? lol..]

HedgeMage

@Mehrdad It's been years since I set her up -- I know there were 5-6 of them. Basic stuff, some of it (ironically) MS software.

Pavel Shved

I don't know if it's true any longer. Afaik, you can now work under a non-root user in Win, and Win7 has now a very annoying GUI-sudo that pops up every time to ask for root permissions...

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:10

@Mehrdad You can run linux games on limited accounts if root gave you permission to :)

though, "limited" is a bad word choice there

It implies that giving every idiot at a keyboard root access is a reasonable default position.

Mehrdad

@HedgeMage: Yeah but, are there any decent games for Linux at all? Starcraft and famous stuff like that are only for Windows in the first place, aren't they?

HedgeMage

In reality, it's INSANE

@Mehrdad I do things, I don't spend real time on games. I'm not 20 any more. That said, when I was a teen I played Starcraft, Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights, and some other stuff you might recognize on Linux.

@Mehrdad I know others who do WoW, Eve online, etc on Linux.

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad I used to run World of Warcraft from under Linux (via Wine) :) I worked in Linux, waiting until a party is assembled, and then rebooted to windows for greater performance :)

Mehrdad

Oh wait, that's Wine
that's not what I was expecting when I said "Linux"... x______x

HedgeMage

I don't care much for gaming, though -- it had its moments when I was sick all the time in my teens and had nothing better to do. Not since then.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 07:12

Lol. I was just using that as the example given to me :P

HedgeMage

I code, I do community building stuff, I write, etc.

Mehrdad

I'm curious to know which standard programs don't work with limited accounts on Windows

HedgeMage

I do play the occassional game of Go or Backgammon.

Pavel Shved

@Mehrdad I'm not going to argue. I'm perfectly fine to reboot to windows (or even to walk across the room to PS3) to play some games. Games are not why I like Linux.

HedgeMage

My 8yo has a ton of games on his Linux box, though.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 07:13

lol nice

HedgeMage

He could tell you more about it than I :P

Mehrdad

(I'm sure I've used pretty nice Windows programs at school on limited accounts)

HedgeMage

He, however, is sleeping.

Mehrdad

hahaha ok

HedgeMage

It's the middle of the night here.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 07:14

Oh wow

well here too actually

it's 12:14am

HedgeMage

I love my mini-hacker. I lucked out with a really awesome kid.

Pavel Shved

Hehe, and here it's 11:14 am

Looks like 1h difference :D

but actually it's not

Mehrdad

haha

Pavel Shved

this AM/PM notation is crazy

Mehrdad

lol

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:15

He has a profound speech disorder -- he was totally nonverbal until he was 5.5 years old... however, it's a rare / newly understood disorder so when I first tried to register him for school they tried to tell me he was mentally retarded instead of having CAS...

Pavel Shved

@HedgeMage good you've manage to overcome this.

Mehrdad

:O oh wow... ditto what @PavelShved said

HedgeMage

We retrieved my laptop from the car and I made the special education staff watch while he (having just turned 3 years old) walked them through the Linux boot sequence in sign language and explained why there were two kernels (stable and mommy's dev kernel) and why he didn't use the latter.

Mehrdad

O__O

HedgeMage

They asked what a kernel was and I said they could look it up on wikipedia after giving him the classes I asked for.

Mehrdad

Jun 18, 2011 07:17

LOL

you should've been like
"Ever had popcorn?"

"That's what a kernel is"

HedgeMage

He spoke at his first tech conference when he was 7.

He's my mini-hacker. :)

Mehrdad

o_o wow

HedgeMage

</bragging>

;)

Mehrdad

lol :)
that's pretty interesting though!

Pavel Shved

It's so ironical that they assumed he was... uhm, "retarded". Sad irony though.

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:19

Thanks.

Jinjavajin

who is that?

HedgeMage

@PavelShved Yeah, we got that a lot. They couldn't get it through their heads that he couldn't talk because of a muscle issue not a mental one.

Mehrdad

Haha ok I'm gonna go to bed
12 am here lol

HedgeMage

@Jinjavajin My son.

Goodnight, @Mehrdad

Mehrdad

'night! Thanks for all the help!

HedgeMage

Jun 18, 2011 07:20

Any time!

Jinjavajin

@HedgeMage Ah,interesting

HedgeMage

@PavelShved We got lucky -- most kids with CAS get diagnosed between ages 8-10 (years). LF was diagnosed at age 3, so he's a lot better off than most CAS kids.

@PavelShved They are usually just starting to talk in middle school. LF just finished 1st grade -- reading, presenting at a tech conference, and he loves Tolkein and Mark Twain :)

(So, I wasn't really done bragging -- that's what happens when you get the proud mommy going.)

contemplates writing up the aforementioned blog post vs. sleep.

crud, it's after 2am

Sleep!

Goodnight, @PavelShved and @Jinjavajin

Pavel Shved

Jun 18, 2011 08:11

Goodnight, Mage.

The Whiteboard

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