Interviewing and Job Search

Robert Harvey

Feb 26, 2015 16:32

If I can change the subject for a moment, has anyone else in here noticed a trend among employers that they now want you to know everything they need for their projects so that you can start running right out of the gate? In other words, they want you to have already learned what you need to know on someone else's dime. Is that a new thing, or has that always been the case?

Seems like there was a time when you could get a job just by demonstrating that you knew how to pick up the learning you need and how to solve problems and get the job done.

durron597

@RobertHarvey That's basically what Google said when I interviewed there several years ago. "We think you have talent but you're rusty. Go work for someone else to help you get back up to speed, then apply again"

Robert Harvey

Egad, they were actually bluntly obvious about it?

durron597

@RobertHarvey They were explicit

user55340

Google can be picky. Others it's a pipedream for them to be that picky.

durron597

Career note: I was a Java developer from 2006 to 2008, I played poker professionally from 2008 to 2012, this interview was in early 2012

enderland

Feb 26, 2015 16:38

@RobertHarvey I wish all employers cared primarily about "are you smart and can you learn" ?

I think that may be more true for internal moves than external moves

durron597

@enderland That's why I keep offering you the chance to apply here

I'm a developer who pretty much has hiring power :)

Robert Harvey

I read an article recently that said "Employers have gotten lazy about recruiting, and don't understand that the market has turned in favor of employees again, and that their current recruiting practices are no longer going to work, but they haven't figured that out yet."

Telastyn

I'm not sure. I don't think that employers have ever been trusting of employees to just figure things out.

but then again, employers are only slightly better than clients.

enderland

@durron597 yeah yeah yeah, want to move to the midwest??? :D

durron597

I told my boss outright in the interview for this job that I didn't know all the things I would need to know, but that I was smart and learned things quickly. I guess he believed me

@enderland Don't you mean "Midwest, US" (cc: @GlenH7 @JimmyHoffa)

user55340

Feb 26, 2015 16:42

@enderland want to work for the state of Wisconsin?

durron597

@RobertHarvey For what it's worth the only thing we've ever tried to find good people that actually resulted in promising interviews is face-to-face career fairs

careers.stackoverflow.com resulted in all crap, half a dozen recruiting firms have finally, after a YEAR resulted in the first on site interview, and I don't even like the guy that much.

I would take any regular in this room over every single person we've met through a professional recruitment firm in a heartbeat

enderland

@durron597 I thought about it!

Robert Harvey

@durron597 I'm going to have to start doing those and networking and other similar things, because I think the whole sending out resumes thing is extremely haphazard and inefficient. For whatever reason, employers can't figure out what I'm capable of doing from my resume, even though they all agree that it looks impressive.

durron597

@enderland What about Texas over Iowa?

enderland

@durron597 no winter

durron597

Feb 26, 2015 16:46

@RobertHarvey How many times have you heard someone say "I do so much better in in-person interviews than my resume makes me look"

@JimmyHoffa I thought @Ampt is making a lot of money doing ~~nothing~~ consulting for a client that loves him right now

Robert Harvey

@durron597 I have heard that, yes. Not sure that describes me, unless I already know something about the company, how they work and what they want.

enderland

@RobertHarvey are there local tech meetups down there? we have a state org that does tech meetups in a lot of cities

user55340

@durron597 there are crazy people who like winter. Some of them go shirtless to GB packer games.

enderland

I went to one and someone basically wanted to offer me a job (and afaik are trying to, just like a 3 month process at this point lol) and interview

I'm sure they those people would MUCH prefer someone with experience to a youngin like me anyways...

Robert Harvey

@enderland I will look into that. There are some things coming up; the local community college is holding a job fair, and all the aerospace companies go to that.

Telastyn

Feb 26, 2015 16:48

I have a bit of that resume vs capability problem, though until recently it was because of years of professional experience vs years of coding experience.

durron597

@RobertHarvey What I meant is that, that's why career fairs were good. I got to spend 5-15 minutes with a ton of people, I threw out 80% of the resumes we got but it still resulted in 6 interviews, which is more than we had in all of 2014

Robert Harvey

Ah, I see.

durron597

One of which was the worst resume I've ever seen. But she was just bad at writing resumes.

enderland

@RobertHarvey I'd be shocked if there's not something like that in your area

Oscar

@RobertHarvey I am in a similar position. Have you considered a portfolio of projects that you can show employers?

enderland

Feb 26, 2015 16:50

technologyiowa.org/en/events_services/techbrew is what we have (lots of them around the state)

durron597

@MichaelT It's 39 degrees today!

Robert Harvey

@Oscar It's going to take awhile to put that together. Everything I've worked on in the past is company proprietary.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Have you considered doing the problems at Hackerrank? ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn the problem is less of the employees and more of the whole process and more often than not non-technical managers which results in people being poorly evaluated

Robert Harvey

@durron597 Already doing that.

durron597

Feb 26, 2015 16:51

@RobertHarvey I know, that was what the smiley was about

Robert Harvey

I need the experience solving the puzzle problems so I can pass them in interviews.

Oscar

Your issue is that employers are not able to understand what you can do from your resume?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Oscar his main issue is that he likes to burn things, and his urges are becoming more difficult to control

Robert Harvey

^^--- That.

user41796

And we all wondered why he's accused of MOD ABUSE! so often....

enderland

Feb 26, 2015 16:53

You could just put something on your profile "100k+ rep on Stack Overflow in tags X, Y Z"

or something :P

Robert Harvey

I think, to a certain degree, employers expect to find someone with a "linear" career path. I went from writing business software to analyzing aircraft telemetry data, and employers can't figure out how that fits into their business model.

Oscar

That is a point. It is also a pretty cool career

user41796

@RobertHarvey That's true - they have a hard time identifying if their work would be a logical progression for your work

Robert Harvey

Also: WPF, jQuery, Angular, HTML5 yada yada.

Oscar

I customize my CVs to the employers I am applying, so I can show them I can add value to their business

Robert Harvey

Feb 26, 2015 16:55

That's a full-time career right there.

Telastyn

indeed.

durron597

@Oscar You must do that. Custom cover letters too

Robert Harvey

[sigh]

Telastyn

pff.

durron597

We are a small company. We want our hires to actually care about the business, have it be interesting to them. Cookie cutter resumes mean "I don't actually care about what you do"

"I just want any job"

Oscar

Feb 26, 2015 16:56

Here (in Brazil) we do not have this kind of approach :)

Telastyn

yet you make them write bullshit cover letters that only evaluates how well they bullshit.

ratchet freak

that's why you also shouldn't let a recruiter have your resume

Oscar

I am appplying to germany now and I am going through this process of cover letter and so on.

durron597

I think the moment I got this job was when I told my (now) boss that platinum prices were affected by EPA regulations. The rest of the interviewing was formality

Robert Harvey

@durron597 How do you do that, if you don't know anything about the company? And don't tell me "you didn't do your research." The only way you can know how a company works is by talking to the people who work there.

durron597

Feb 26, 2015 16:57

@RobertHarvey Ask.

Robert Harvey

Ask who? The receptionist?

enderland

@RobertHarvey google is helpful for this too, even if you just know about their products

user41796

@RobertHarvey reach out through your linked in connections

ratchet freak

@RobertHarvey clients of the company

user55340

Check glass door.

durron597

Feb 26, 2015 16:58

One of the people we're interviewing next week emailed us to ask us more about our business. He said "I'm interested in the opportunity and I'd like to learn more about your company" and asked specific questions. Both myself and my boss were impressed, we didn't feel like he was wasting our time.

@GlenH7 This too

You can send people who work there inMessages

Telastyn

and seriously, I don't give a flying crap about your business. making good code doesn't care if their business is widgets or phones or stocks or energy. the business rules are always arcane and they're always meaningless in the end.

durron597

@enderland Also this is good

The idea is that when searching for job postings you'll probably find dozens or hundreds

Think about looking for a job like looking for a significant other

user41796

@Telastyn Shhhh. You're not supposed to say that until after you have the job.

user55340

@Telastyn exactly my feelings.

durron597

(making gender assumptions because I'm lazy) would you just date any woman you meet? or are there specific things you look for?

Telastyn

Feb 26, 2015 17:00

yeh, not so good at biting my tongue.

ratchet freak

@MichaelT or subcontractors, people they have subcontracted for etc.

enderland

@durron597 yes, I look for her to be my wife ;)

durron597

@enderland you already have a ~~job~~ significant other

enderland

hey I have a job too

durron597

my point is for when you're ~~unemployed~~ single

Telastyn

Feb 26, 2015 17:01

@durron597 sure, I look for things, but they're Joel test things. Stuff that actually impacts my job. I don't care what you name your widgets.

enderland

stipulations...

Robert Harvey

Dating is an apt metaphor. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll incorporate them into my search. But I'm a bit with @Telastyn on this one: why would I be enamored with your company if we haven't even dated yet?

enderland

@Telastyn everyone's different, too, I actually care that the product my company makes is a "good" thing for the world (I turned down a job partially because their product only exists because of government regulations which are ~~pointless~~ beneficial)

Oscar

You shouldn't, but you should know her background before you go on a date :)

durron597

@RobertHarvey Just like with a woman, you don't start out enamored. You start out interested/intrigued, so you start putting effort in

If it's the right ~~job~~ woman, you put in more effort. If it's not, you stop putting in effort

ratchet freak

Feb 26, 2015 17:03

and when she start getting boring you dump her and find a new one

durron597

@ratchetfreak Ding. this happens with jobs too!

Telastyn

@enderland quite true.

enderland

I love this chatroom

durron597

@Telastyn Some companies look for this in their hires. You might LinkedIn message some of their developers and say "Hey I'm interviewing soon and I want to learn more about your culture"

user41796

@enderland ironic in that you could substitute "chatroom" for "job" or "woman" in several of the above comments

Telastyn

Feb 26, 2015 17:04

I will never do that.

durron597

Some companies want their hires to care about the product itself. You (@Telastyn) should not work at these companies.

Telastyn

because they will lie.

user41796

@Telastyn Not always. Depends upon the level of connection you have

Ampt

@enderland in soviet Russia, chat room love you

user41796

Buddy of a buddy is likely going to be honest. No connection at all? Meh...

Telastyn

Feb 26, 2015 17:05

I'll go to glassdoor and check

in my experience, even buddy of buddy are dubious.

user55340

Some places it's a "do you know what you're getting into? It can suck here..."

enderland

@GlenH7 idk, if you find ex employees you are in better luck than current employees

I've done that before

durron597

@Telastyn If you ask on LinkedIn "I'm considering interviewing, I really like having a quiet work environment" and then you come in to the interview and it's a really noisy open floor plan then you know you're never going to work with these ~~liars~~ people

Telastyn

I don't see how me asking is going to change that conclusion.

Robert Harvey

Well, I hope I can hold out for this ideal of "find work that you're suited for, where the employer understands what the words 'mutually-beneficial collaboration' really mean." I hope I can say to a company "This is the place where I genuinely want to work," and not be simply saying it because I'd like to keep a roof over my head.

Telastyn

Feb 26, 2015 17:07

best of luck with that.

anyways, food. bbiab.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Just like in dating, having high standards makes you more attractive, not less

enderland

@durron597 ... to some people, but, generally people you want to date

Robert Harvey

Yeah; it can also make you look like an arrogant prick, if you don't balance it properly.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 so jobs only go to members of the closed circle who have connections to a company?

durron597

@RobertHarvey /me is reminded of the old trope about the most successful playas being arrogant pricks

user41796

Feb 26, 2015 17:09

@JimmyHoffa No, but they'll go faster based upon internal recommendations

enderland

@JimmyHoffa generally the easiest way to get jobs is networking (even or perhaps especially internally)

I mean, imagine that @durron597 lived in LA area, you think @RobertHarvey would have any trouble getting an interview/job with his company?

durron597

@enderland He would, because he hates Java :) (Your point is well taken)

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 the vast majority of people in a company are committing to serious employment risk by responding to any inquiries like this. HR finds out and that person is going to meet the axe asap.

durron597

@JimmyHoffa You can ask the HR person yourself!

enderland

@JimmyHoffa that's why you talk with ex-employees, not current employees

user41796

Feb 26, 2015 17:11

@durron597 We all hate Java. Some of us are just better able to tolerate it than others.

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 because HR is the epitome of truthfulness.

@enderland ex-employees pretty much all paint with the same brush: The one that involves them having parted ways for some reason

durron597

@JimmyHoffa If it makes you stand out enough to get an interview, then you've gotten an interview. And if it turns out HR was lying, you don't take the job.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa but they have nothing to lose about answering questions truthfully

or at least, a looot less than current employees

Jimmy Hoffa

I'm with @Telastyn on this, it's a pile of bullshit to expect people to investigate your company in any way other than what's obviously publically available. Beyond that, it's up to the employer to sell the employee if the person's any good - it's the employer who will end up profitting on hiring good people.

most hiring practices are bullshit though. like the CV, that is a test of how good of a salesman someone is. Real useful for sales jobs, but for tech..

Ampt

Are we talking about interviewing and getting jobs?

oh boy!

Jimmy Hoffa

Feb 26, 2015 17:14

The only useful parts of a resume are those that describe actual technical activities completed, and describe technical skills with some sort of relative rating to tell you they're better at SQL than JavaScript or vice versa

The CV and the rest of it is just sales material

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