hotness formula damage case study #2 - "let that devil out"

Jimmy Hoffa

Aug 2, 2013 14:43

@gnat is this going to hit collider? It looks like the perfect me-too answer type question

3

Q: Do we set the bar too high by requiring that code tests not suffer from buffer overflow?

We are currently recruiting for a Junior Developer position working mainly in C on Linux. As part of the process, we require candidates to complete a code test at their leisure in C. So far we have rejected two candidates on the basis that their code, although readable and in one case rather id...

3 answers in a half hour with the potential for everybody to spew some opinionated garbage. Should I just close vote as opinion based?

See too little of the shark these days around here it seems

tdammers, Netherlands

32.9k 7 63 114

php programming-languages licensing web-development learning programming-practices open-source

gnat

@JimmyHoffa opinion based sounds like it (need some time to look deeper to make my mind for voting). As for hitting collider, hard to tell, title a bit too long

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat Good point, so if I shorten the title will I be appropriately repwhoring?

gnat

@JimmyHoffa that's sort of an art to attract / distract hotness lemmings, I can't predict here :)

@JimmyHoffa not all cyclomatic, only arrowhead "subset" of these and even not not all of arrowhead. I tried thorough discovery for dupes in March-April, turned out too tedious, nowadays I stop as soon as I feel tired...

...that usually happens at 2nd or 3rd dupe found

dupes are much harder to work with than the rest of closures

18

Q: Strongly separate duplicates from "the rest" in close votes review queue

Update: I wish I could downvote decline justification twice. "You can already filter down by close reason." Oh really , Do you see many reviewers using filter? Do you see Steward badges awarded for Close Votes as frequently as these would be to obtain with appropriately filtered review queue? ...

feature-request status-declined review vote-to-close exact-duplicates

Jimmy Hoffa

Aug 2, 2013 15:05

woo 2 answers this morning, 10k here I come...yeah...2 answers is totally going to get me to 10k...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa btw, it was just you. Everyone else who was a junior has been perfect. Its the hiring of seniors that I worry about.

gnat

@JimmyHoffa with all due respect, it really feels opinion based

> Are we setting the bar too high? What is the expected capability of graduate/Junior engineers?

user55340

(once dealt with a $150/h consultant who couldn't figure out how to change Math.pow(10,foo) / Math.pow(10,bar) into Math.pow(10,foo - bar) when shown how to do it.)

gnat

not to mention that "graduate/Junior" widens it too broad

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat heh I agree, I just wanted to get some verification from others before I close vote

gnat

Aug 2, 2013 15:11

we're not "help us hire" service. Just questions and answers

Jimmy Hoffa

I'm officially still a 'Junior Software Engineer' with a whole 2 years of experience! My background is in neither CS or SW Engineering (It's in Physics). I would not willingly hand in code that segfaults on any input, now, or when I was recruited. — brice 2 mins ago

correction, you would not knowingly hand in code that segfaults on any input. If you just claimed you never write bugs then sorry to bother you John Carmack. — Jimmy Hoffa 38 secs ago

Now I don't even feel bad about close voting it heh

@gnat That's a great point

gnat

this review audit is funny, because it "borrowed" my edit summary programmers.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/35696 At first I couldn't figure how comes that my own edit transferred into suggestion and made it to my own review :)

Jimmy Hoffa

Oh you mean this part?

> technical debt -> technical debt

It just picked that as a comment from a random other edit?

...I'm now pondering if John Carmack does ever write bugs... nah, he's the master of the universe; creator of my entire adolescent universe- he's perfect. Surely.

user55340

Aug 2, 2013 15:27

@gnat its not that I worry that the queue isn't clearing fast enough, but rather that this is an opportunity for people to be more engaged with the site. I am sad to see people complain about the same five people closing when they have the opportunity to enter the review queue themselves and mark "leave open" to help guide it to a more moderate way (given the assumption that we are too likely to close).

gnat

@JimmyHoffa on a further thought, too broad might be even better fit. Combination "junior + technical skills" almost always guarantees that, their technical skills may differ wildly. The way to distinguish lies out there...

Jimmy Hoffa

It occurs to me you could do a counting sort on strings with atoi, it just totally sucks because you have to use the summation of atoi as your index/max err actually summation wouldn't even work, you need to use multiplication, so any string of significant length would result in an enormous array

gnat

144

A: How can I overcome "years of experience" requirements when applying to positions?

In your question you say they ask for 3 - 7 years of experience Then you go on and on about skill, and how much better you are than more experience members of your current peers. 5+ years in the industry would tell you from experience that this is not logically a valid argument. And it wou...

@JimmyHoffa right, summary picked from other edit, and the style and contents is mine technical debt -> [technical debt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt)

@MichaelT yeah I figured that. And it feels we're sort of doomed here, just by the nature of review system

> When queue is small, one can expect only small, dedicated group of users doing reviews regularly. From this perspective, perception of most closures done by that small group is unavoidable I'm afraid.

the best we can hope is to get maybe 10 regular-closers instead of 5

dedicated group, to operate on low queue, can't be large by definition

and I think (I hope) Programmers queue will be mostly low

user55340

Hmm.. verging into MSO feature request. Maybe if there was a "How many reviews you can do" counter next to the review? Mine would be 0 at the moment (no available close reviews, all other queues at 0). The thing is to notify people there are things that can be done.

2

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I'm for it.

gnat

Aug 2, 2013 15:46

@MichaelT that'd be a certain improvement, but not very likely to happen in near future. In my answer at meta, words "different story" are linkified. Hover on that link and take a look at tooltip :)

> Note above dynamics might in turn change if queue would grow to daunting size, but that would be a different story.

Jimmy Hoffa

Aug 2, 2013 16:01

90 rep from soon-to-be-closed question that wasn't very good, and no rep from decent perfectly on-topic quality P.SE question I answered this morning.

How disappointing.

gnat

Downvotes on meta are sometimes used to indicate that you didn't bend out of shape to please readers. In your case, this seems to be just the case (my guess is some simply dislike word karma). Nothing in your post deserves dovnvote, even if it eventually will get status-declined. It's original, interesting, well intentioned and not actively harmful. A good read... of course for those who bother to read — gnat 56 secs ago

@JimmyHoffa that's why I abstain of answering when I sense closure. Even when I feel an urge to say something "answer-like", I post it to comments. OTOH, I find nothing wrong when others answer, as long as they provide good content. Stack Exchange is for 1) Google to find answers 2) answerers to have fun and only 3) askers to get what they want. 2nd place, right after Google, isn't that bad...

7

A: Summer of Love and questions that the FAQ says should not be asked

Askers yield As a prolific answerer, you better keep in mind that your satisfaction with questions quality is considered more important than that of the asker. For the official statement on above, refer to Stack Exchange blog, Optimizing For Pearls, Not Sand: ...we’re determined to keep que...

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat Yeah, that prioritization bit there took me a long time to realize

This took me less time to realize...

The thing you're missing is that "SO is a site for specific programming questions" and Programmers is too. We are not for subjective questions or opinionated questions any more than SO, think of Programmers as being exactly like SO in guidelines, the only difference is the topics: SO topics should be questions with some code, Programmers topics should be questions with programming concepts. Things like known patterns, design approaches, diagrams, the architectural questions which SO isn't for. Regarding guidelines, ours are just as strict as SO. — Jimmy Hoffa 17 mins ago

I don't know why people manage to not figure that out, it's pretty plain to see in all the closed questions

and they are told as much with the closure messages and even directly on meta, but it still doesn't sink in

user55340

Aug 2, 2013 16:17

It is slightly more frustrating when one pokes at the other questions...

user55340

1

Q: Why was my question on file comparison tools closed?

I recently asked a question and it was closed and I cannot go back to view the answers in it. Just curious as to why it was closed, it was on topic. question

discussion closed-questions specific-question

user55340

Which is about a question (deleted) programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/160205/… - "File comparison tool that will allow me to manually remap lines between two files when comparing? [closed]"

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Yeah, this guy is also suffering from lacking recognition that the site isn't here for the questioners, the way he talks about "Oh I thought it might be closed but figured it didn't hurt anybody and I'd get a good answer anyway!"

Also it's commonly unrecognized that this site is not really here for the people asking questions, this site is here to "to build a library of detailed answers to every question about software development." - sound like another site? Wikipedia for instance? Do you think wikipedia exists for the participants who create topics and write info in them? No, it exists to provide info to people who google for info. Similarly SE's priority across all of SE is to have a library of information that the internet community can google and find. This means timeless, quality content is a necessity. — Jimmy Hoffa 15 secs ago

gnat

recommended reading: Optimizing For Pearls, Not Sand "We feel that the world is awash in questions, but not answers. Answers are the real unit of work in any Q&A system. Therefore, the only logical thing to do is to maximize the happiness and enjoyment of answerers. If this means aggressively downvoting or closing unworthy and uninteresting questions, so be it. Without a community of people willing to answer questions, it really doesn’t matter if there are questions at all, does it?" — gnat 17 secs ago

"Do we set the bar too high..." reached top page of colider (#4 now) and lemmings began coming in. What? Meh

0

A: Do we set the bar too high by requiring that code tests not suffer from buffer overflow?

As others mentioned, junior positions may have little experience with C. I personally only briefly was taught about buffer overflows in C and even if I could watch out for them, it is likely I would still introduce some (especially if given an assignment that lends itself to creating buffer over...

it's like watching train wreck in slow motion isn't it

of course as othershavementioned, I sense that entree by a mile

BTDT

hotness formula damage case study - "+25, +14, -1, -1, -1"

May 28 at 15:47, 5 hours 40 minutes total – 54 messages, 5 users, 4 stars

Bookmarked May 29 at 7:26 by gnat

Jimmy Hoffa

Aug 2, 2013 16:33

@gnat Knew it, the content is pure lemming-lover

Just needs a couple more close votes

user55340

Aug 2, 2013 16:46

0

A: What is programmers.stackexchange.com for?

Stack exchange is built on the premise of being the go to place for getting the answer to a problem. One place to get one answer. There are several design decisions in the core of the site that attempt to push the users of the site in that way. Stack exchange was also built as a rejection of f...

gnat

@JimmyHoffa one day, I'll post that freakin' feature request at MSO, just to see how it flies. And to stop Shog from "re-presenting" it as gnat wants to delete hot list. Got the title...

In hotness formula, discard answers when voting evidence indicates against their popularity

...got the key points. Like, 1) let formula work in accordance with specification (accepted answers were excluded as "not a good data point for... quality", "one assumes... there will be a lot more voting on the answers"). Gee every time I re-read this "specification, it strikes me how far is the formula from it....

...I don't blame initial designers, because in 2008-2009 these misses didn't matter (for collider audience was too small to expose this issue, but since 2011, there was plenty time and evidence to find out about it)...

...2) let time decay and community do their job by timely slipping questions from top 1-2 pages at collider...

...3) The last, but not the least, stop misguiding thousands site users who think "cool" (high score) question is one filled with tens of meh answers (and who spread acquired attitude further into other questions), roll the dice fairly to show them less brain-damaging content to learn from

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat Thinking about this formula, it occurs to me I could totally abuse it by just writing all my answers in two parters to questions, more answers more hotness more choices for people to gimme the reps

gnat

@JimmyHoffa something like that, you opnly need to take care of questions not being closeable. Formula bug is quite easy to fix by closing the question, it's only good ones that suffer (or as you plan, benefit)

:)

Jimmy Hoffa

Advanced Repwhoring 622 class in session

(I have no idea what those numbers next to classes go up to or mean)

user55340

Ask a question that hits a popular topic that is fuzzy enough to get lots of people wanting to add their bit, and is hard enough to not get 5 close votes.

gnat

Aug 2, 2013 16:58

sort of. BTW I suspect substantial amount of _lemmings- currently do that intentionally / instinctively. They feel protected from DVs from regulars by mindless upvoting at the top of collider, and they feel it's an easy rep there

question "hotness" at 78 (about half fake I think), #3 at collider, second meh answer, first pair of pure sympathy upvotes, business as usual. Yet another case study. Even good answers score resembles prior one 26, 15. Oh well

> About Me: - Degree in Physics with almost no formal training. - 2 Years work experience. So I know what the learning process is all about. - Start software developer. I have done very demanding work, and seen all different skill levels from various individuals. Many of them can't handle a lot of what i do.

but of course, aboutme how important

Answers quality in hot questions says happen once or twice a week on average - but that counts only questions that stay open. If we include closed ones, that get the same firestorm, just aborted halfway, it can happen 2-3x more frequently

we're pretty strong community to handle that aren't we. At SO in comparison, they started crying and screaming, calling for mods and refunding bounties at single croissant

@gnat: Yes, I saw that you posted the same comment below the question. One of the other SO mods had to lock the question again because of all the attention it is getting. The thing would die gracefully if we just all ignored it. If you want to talk about the collider, ask a new question. — Robert Harvey Jul 30 at 15:56

►

> and I'll always be crying over you

score 89 (half fake), #2 at collider, answers score at low end totally unrelated to quality, business as usual

46 mins ago, by gnat

it's like watching train wreck in slow motion isn't it

what does this teach users looking at the questions through top pages of collider? (300+ of them as of now - all artificaially attracted by collider, reddit would bring much more)

> So comes next and next and next round of garbage answers, bumping the question, bringing mindless upvotes, over and over and over again.

> Hotness algorithm calculates this as genuine popularity, keeps it accordingly high at collider, bringing more visitors that are breaking things further and so on and so on. Note it's not limited to newcomers only, everyone is invited to the party. Community regulars can clearly see that usual quality norms are broken in favor of populist garbage and that they are free to follow the New Order just like anyone else.

> That's how fake popularity makes shit stick to the ceiling and helps to keep it there.

> recipe for successful populist garbage:

> The rules are classical: know your audience. In hot question, your audience will be many (thousands) community newcomers, unfamiliar with norms, plus several site regulars. Newcomers are your sheep, these will bring you wool and milk (upvotes and supportive comments). Regulars are your dogs, you need to make sure they can't bite you too hard (can't flag / 20Kers won't vote-to-delete your answer).

> For the "sheep", you need a populist slogan, a pitch, a catch phrase that will trigger sufficient support ("git is fantastic" is a good bet for programmers communities). For the "dogs", you need basic handwaving skills - just enough blah blah to make sure answer isn't flaggable plus make it read sufficiently smoothly to avoid triggering vote-to-delete in case if 20Ker skims through it.

> ...Just... go for it. Have some fun, blow it up. Let that devil out

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hotness formula damage case study - "+25, +14, -1, -1, -1"

hotness formula damage case study #2 - "let that devil out"

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