Conversation about rude comments

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 00:38

@KorvinStarmast I've gone ahead and deleted the comments on that answer. It doesn't seem like you plan to use them for any sort of post-improvement, so at this point they're cluttering the page. If you want to see/reference them at all one of us can pull 'em back for you. (cc: @doppelgreener)

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 I do not appreciate a diamond mod (dop) throwing weight around and trying to tell me what I can and cannot put into an answer. So the response is precisely what was deserved. In re the !: Five Years worth of friendship and relationship, and someone is venting here. Nothing To Do With a Freaking Game. There is a friendship on the brink here. I have seen friendship's break over stinkin' games, RPG's

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast are you willing to talk a moment about that here, or would you prefer a more-private venue?

KorvinStarmast

(Our last traveller campaign was one such) so that question pulls at my heartstrings. Yes, my friend, I have a heart

I can talk now

nitsua60

I'm asking whether here (public) is the place, vs. a locked chat-room?

KorvinStarmast

I am good, I trust you.

And the truth shall set you free.

You know my email address if you think that is better. Your call.

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 00:44

So I'm an almost-Pollyanna-level of Assume Good Faith reader. When I first read that comment of greener's I don't read it as "you shall not put such a phrase in your answer on this site," I read it as "I don't think those words are the way to respond in order to get across your message."

KorvinStarmast

dopp surely did not appreciate my snarky comment about '-1 snowflake answer noted' I understand that, but as I noted to Mxy, I think this is a generational thing.

nitsua60

What did you mean by that comment?

KorvinStarmast

Too many people are afraid to look at "hard true things" and I've got the scars to prove it.

I was as tactful as I could be with that answer. All Dopp's comments did was get me to put in a preface about friendship. That isn't what SE answers are about, but it's probably worth including.

Put another way, that comment is what Jack Nicholson's character said in a few good men: "you can't handle the truth."

nitsua60

(Bit of background/disclosure: I, too, look at many of our questions and just want to scream at the screen "have you tried TALKING to the person? You know, the one right there in front of you!?!?")

@KorvinStarmast That comment (first, snowflake, one) didn't communicate the "you can't handle the truth" message to me at all.

KorvinStarmast

Our hurting querent has talked to the GM/friend and has been dismissed. I am a sonofabitch, but I didn't have the heart to tell him your answer does not lie here, in the internet of strangers.

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 00:48

I see the word "snowflake" devoid of any obvious wintry context on an RPG site and immediately assume you're insulting someone.

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, it is aimed at people who are a little too huggy and fluffy for the real world.

As I see it, whomever (and I called this one right) dropped the -1 was the sort who is not a fan of cold, clear, problem solving.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Which isn't appropriate here.

KorvinStarmast

Neither is someone trying to censor me for an answer that tried to be without emotion.

nitsua60

Name-calling of any kind, directed at anyone on-site of off-, is a violation of Be Nice.

@KorvinStarmast Oh, come on.

KorvinStarmast

Emotional response to a hard, action based answer is to me offensive.

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 00:51

@KorvinStarmast You don't know who voted or why. So put aside that particular offense.

KorvinStarmast

OK, you are right. I'll stand by my estimate.

We are here to solve problems

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast (And there might be a 99% chance you're right--I'm not standing here with my head in the sand. But you can't act on that belief. Or, if you do, you may go astray.)

KorvinStarmast

I can't solve someone's relationship problem with an answer on RPG.SE.

nitsua60

Gotta run for twenty minutes--two adorable little girls need to be dung to. Mind if we pick this up when I'm done?

KorvinStarmast

Let us do that, and blessings on your two little ones! :)

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 01:16

@KorvinStarmast back--you there?

KorvinStarmast

yeah, I be here

@nitsua60 yeah, I be here, was talking to miniman

nitsua60

(always a good way to spend some time, IME)

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, in spades

where were we

nitsua60

Alright, so let's stipulate that greener's comment wasn't the best they've ever written, because it's not exactly clear what action *you* should take if you agree with the comment. It's not (a) "-1 because ___" to which you could consider adjusting your style/choices for future posts, or (b) "that's not a great way to approach a stranger, try this instead." But I don't find that terribly problematic--it's just a bit of a weak comment.

The problem is, your next comment neither reads like "I decline your advice" nor like "Noted, but I dasagree and won't be changing anything." It feels like *…

KorvinStarmast

That is a charitable reading of my comment.

Thank you

I stated quite clearly "you are wrong" and meant it.

If someone is going to call me out like that, they better be prepared for a response

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 01:24

@KorvinStarmast But you know that comments aren't the place for arguments. No matter whether what he says makes you see red, the appropriate response will either be (a) nothing, (b) flag for deletion with a "I'll not be taking this advice", or (c) a polite response declining the advice, probably to be followed by a flag for deletion.

@KorvinStarmast But what response?

KorvinStarmast

"you are wrong" is the core of my response

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Which is not the proper use of comments.

And you know that.

KorvinStarmast

The unspoken response, and unwritten response, is "you don't get to tell me how to write"

nitsua60

Fine sentiment. But again, not for comments.

KorvinStarmast

Let The voting decide on how good or bad my writing is

IMO, dopp was out of line to tell me how to write. Sorry, no.

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 01:25

Ping 'em in chat. Drop a comment that says "I'm not exactly happy with what's happening here, can we talk about this?"

KorvinStarmast

OK, maybe that's a better way to proceed.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I have no problem with the first part of that sentiment. (I express neither agreement or disagreement with that.) But a comment-argument isn't the way to pursue that.

Miniman

@nitsua60 He did do that!

nitsua60

@Miniman (I saw it, and I think it came after the comment-chain we're talking about. But shortly after, in fairness.)

KorvinStarmast

I had to eat some humble pie when I edited one of KRyan's posts, trying to be helpful, and his replay was pretty fair, if a veiled push back: don't do that, you aren't helping.

I try to be less ambiguous in my communication.

Miniman

Jul 3, 2017 01:28

@nitsua60 Yep. Sorry, that was supposed to be a slightly humorous exclamation, not an indignant one.

nitsua60

@Miniman Gotcha. Then I'll retcon a "lol" into that colloquy. =)

KorvinStarmast

So my view is this: it is not correct to tell someone how to say that. Let the votes decide. This isn't the first time I've run into a mod getting one step too far into the weeds.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast And that's both fine and, sometimes, refreshing.

KorvinStarmast

If the consensus is that I need another suspension, then so be it. What I won't do is not be as helpful as I can in my own idiom.

There are too many responses that dance around the issue; ain't gonna do that, and I will not be told that I must.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I've got no problem with anything you say there. You get to feel about anyone on site however you'd like. But when your comments start to contain things like "read the entire question, please" and "for you to pretend house rules are a sacred ground" was inappropriate.

Do you know that they didn't read the question in the first instance? No. Be Nice.

KorvinStarmast

Jul 3, 2017 01:31

We are back to the generational thing here.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast What's that?

KorvinStarmast

The assumption that a house rule is beyond the remit of a GM -- under the points I made regarding making them known -- is anathema to RPG.

I am of a generation that actually accepted "Ok, your table, your rules" as the norm. Somehow, the new generation seems to think that is an abberration.

nitsua60

I think you're reading that onto greener's comment, frankly. I don't see in the comment the thing it seems you're reacting to.

KorvinStarmast

Ok, then I do get to say what I said: it's my answer.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast (So am I, btw. Further, it was "okay, your books so your table, and I don't get to play unless I play in a way that you're having fun.")

KorvinStarmast

Jul 3, 2017 01:34

I get to tell the player who is frustrated with house rules "you don't get to complain about that unless they are surprises. Then you can"

And then dopp tells me not to. Sorry, push back is gonna happen.

For the record, between you and dopp and josh, there were no bad choices for diamond.

sad we only got two

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Not quite what happened, to my view.

KorvinStarmast

I suppose that where we sit determines what we see

nitsua60

He said "I don't think ____ is an appropriate response."

He didn't say "you can't say that here."

Nor did he say "please change that because XYZ."

KorvinStarmast

That's newspeak for don't say that

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast Quick question - would this have happened if doppel wasn't a mod? I read "I don't think this is an appropriate thing to say" as him trying to politely say "I disagree with this statement", rather than a mod telling you "you can't write this".

KorvinStarmast

Jul 3, 2017 01:36

yes

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast That's one, particularly uncharitable, way to read it.

KorvinStarmast

@miniman but I suspect that dopp being a mod added extra salsa to the taco.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Do me a solid: what's the most charitable way to have read the comment?

KorvinStarmast

Dopps?

or mine?

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast I'm definitely stealing that analogy XD

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 01:38

@KorvinStarmast Doppelgreener's

KorvinStarmast

He said "I don't think ____ is an appropriate response."A shorter answer is "yes, it is. End of story."

nitsua60

No, sorry. I didn't explain myself well.

KorvinStarmast

A less friendly answer is "I don't give a fart what you think, that's the answer' but I didn't say that, I explained why I did not accept that repsonse.

@miniman no footnotes required

nitsua60

He said "I don't think ____ is an appropriate response." You read that as "newspeak for 'don't say that.'" I claim your read is particularly uncharitable. I'm asking you (as an exercise) to come up with the most-charitable way you could have read greener's comment.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast Thanks!

KorvinStarmast

Jul 3, 2017 01:40

OK, nits, but here's the problem: I believe that like me, dopp often censors himself before typing. (And you do, per your comment way up there)

My read is that someone has bought into the norm that GM's are not to be trusted, nor their efforts appreciated, even though for five years they have run the game.

That's why I did the old "read the whole thing."

This isn't about house rules, it's about a friendship, and a realtionship.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast So what? Even when we censor and edit and proofread and rehearse our statements, we often communicate badly.

KorvinStarmast

Me too, a lot.

(You can ask my wife ...)

The so what is that I read more than the text.

nitsua60

So I believe it's incumbent on us, readers, to try to consider the widest possible universe of messages that could have been the impetus for a statement, then Assume Good Faith of the other person.

I'm asking you, as an exercise, to do so w.r.t. that particular comment that you reacted badly to. What else could the person have been trying to communicate?

KorvinStarmast

A fair statement of principle. Please forgive the mileage on this soul that the world isn't that n

nice

What else? Asking me to change it so that he likes it. My response was hopefully an indication that this was not going to happen.

I fully expect that about 50% of the readership of our site will not like my answer at all. I've noted what the hive mind does.

The other charitable reading is asking me to sugar coat it, to spare the feelings of the querent and the tender souls out there who can't handle that kind of blunt speech.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast If that's what you were trying to communicate, I think that was a really poor way to phrase it. Consider: "I think it's perfectly fine to tell them to stop complaining, [do you mind unpacking what you think I'm missing?]" Second part is optional.

KorvinStarmast

Jul 3, 2017 01:46

You mean my anwer or the comments?

answer

nitsua60

the comments

KorvinStarmast

Nothing so diplomatic was my intent. My intent was "no, you are wrong, and no, I am not going to change that."

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Why not just "I'm not going to change that," then?

KorvinStarmast

OK, that's fari.

Fair.

nitsua60

(Or nothing, and flag for deletion!)

KorvinStarmast

Jul 3, 2017 01:48

"answer will remain, let the votes proceed, we will agree to disagree"

nitsua60

SSD and mxy could probably tell you: about half my comment flags contained the optional text: "I disagree and won't be taking this suggestion."

KorvinStarmast

Flag a diamond mod comment for deletion? Right, and get suspended again for being trouble?

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast flags aren't taken nearly that personally in Stackland, and esp. comment flags

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Nothing wrong with flagging a diamond's comment. Much better than insulting a user--any user.

KorvinStarmast

Hmm. I'll offer that I am skeptical, but thank you both for that insight.

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 01:51

@KorvinStarmast And for the elephant in the room: I'll disclose first that I was on vacation when that-all went down and was a little unplugged. But even before that I'd noticed you seemed to be dropping more grumbly/crusty/pokey/edged/barbed comments in some places. Frankly, as if you were a little disgruntled.

KorvinStarmast

Maybe my one off response is "trust the stack" as a polite way of saying -- wait, I can't say that here, even in chat.

nitsua60

In all fairness, I went back and read through the last few-hundred comments you'd left on the site. About 99% of them are perfectly helpful, on-task, useful contributions. But there're some zingers in there.

KorvinStarmast

I am old enough to tell you that you need to get offa my lawn. Am I permanently disgruntled?

nitsua60

And by "zingers" I mean "wow, that was kinda rude." Or "what the hell are you trying to accomplish with that!?"

KorvinStarmast

Heh, if you could review some of my C.SE comments, and Aviation.SE comments, you might see the actual disgruntled.

The "what to accomplish" is to get someone's attention.

nitsua60

Jul 3, 2017 01:54

@KorvinStarmast Will you do me a favor and dig back through your own comments tab, and see if you see what I see? (When you've got some time.)

KorvinStarmast

That is what shock value is about

OK, I can do that.

nitsua60

Thanks.

KorvinStarmast

OK, enough of your time on this old fart, vaya con dios, amigo. :)

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Participants