BESW and SSD discussion for improving meta dialog

BESW

Feb 12, 2016 20:47

@SevenSidedDie To avoid polarising issues and making people feel like they can co-exist comfortably, avoid using words like "junk" when describing their tags. I know it's describing the tag, not the person or the playstyle, but that's not a distinction it's easy for everyone to make and avoiding that kind of judgemental language is a simple way the mods can make the community more inviting.

This is the sort of thing I've been asking for all along: just be more careful about how we use our words. The things the mod team has been doing are the right things, almost every time. The way the mod team chooses to express itself, however, can be needlessly confrontational.

2

We're role-players, we know that rhetoric matters: the way you say something is as important as what you're saying, in terms of how it gets received.

And no, not everyone will agree that's the big problem here. I certainly don't think it's the only problem. But in terms of what the mods can do to regain trust and to de-escalate the other problems we're facing, I think it'd be useful to work on presentation.

The citizens of the site will have a tendency to polarise over editions and playstyles, because the Internet is awash with that kind of thinking and major flagship Internet communities for our hobby are particularly vociferous about it. This means we need to be actively pushing back against that kind of dichotomous antagonism, in our deeds and in our words.

trogdor

Feb 12, 2016 21:56

@SevenSidedDie I just want to point out that you have not lost my trust, but I am aware that the mods as a unit, regardless of how fair it is or how much the mods actually deserve it, have lost some of the communities trust

and I may have misinterpreted something you said along the line, who knows, but I don't hate or distrust or dislike you

or any of the mods for that matter

I have met no one on this site who I don't like at least a little

no one here has been anything short of at least accepting and reasonable here, with some possible lapses on the part of a very small number of people who I don't believe meant to harm anyone else (none of those few have been mods, by the way, at least that I have personally witnessed)

no one on this site deserves or gets my ire, and no one will unless they inexplicably choose to personally insult me or even mess with someone else here intentionally

and I have no reason to believe or expect either of those things to happen

they could, but I don't expect them

and if it did I would think it to be much more likely to come from someone completely new to the site

I say all this because I want it to be clear that I have not decided to write off the mod team, nor have I actually lost faith over this

I see this whole issue as a misunderstanding by a lot of people

do I possibly include that some mods misunderstood some things? I do think that is certainly possible

but I don't choose to ascribe blame for something like that regardless

and I certainly don't think any mod intentionally set a fire, or anything like that

if it has looked at all like I am especially mad at any mod or all the mods, then I appologize to all of you

doesn't matter if you spoke to me yourselves or even see this

if that was at all the case of what anything I said looked like, then I truly apologize

trogdor

Feb 12, 2016 22:31

if anything I have said has hurt you personally, don't be afraid to tell me. I didn't mean for that to be the outcome of anything I said, but if it was the outcome I will actually apologize again for the misunderstanding.

Zachiel

@BESW Loosely related, I entered a discussion about Homestuck fans invading the comments on some YouTube video and managed to find a meeting point with the opposing part where the guy actually told me "I'm glad we got to agree on this". So happy now. Zachiel 1 - Internet z- ok, more like Internet 254378 but who cares.

BESW

Grats!

I wouldn't touch YouTube comments with someone else's ten-foot pole.

trogdor

it's always nice to have a win like that

@BESW same

I watch youtube, but I don't have any interest in those comments

I have read them a few times a while back, and all they ever were was random stupid things, and yelling at the person at the other side of the screen

not useful information at all XD

Zachiel

Feb 12, 2016 22:53

Sometimes, people just ask legit questions down there, like "how does one become a triangle player, anyway?" (A: you don't. You graduate as a percussionist.)

trogdor

yeah, but those are drowned out generally

and don't quite always have anything to do with the video at hand

XD

SevenSidedDie

Feb 12, 2016 23:24

@BESW Keep in mind that not every meta by a mod is from the mod team. The question about whether the RAW tag is useful is a good example: that's not a question that came from team deliberation; it was equally the first time I saw it as when you saw it. So when you have criticism about how "we" communicate, it's useful to ensure you're actually talking to someone responsible for what you're criticising.

BESW

Oh, I'm aware that the team doesn't collaborate on everything each mod says. Everyone, mods and citizens, should be making this effort. I think I've had this conversation at least once with each moderator now, and with several citizens.

SevenSidedDie

@trogdor I appreciate that, and the general sentiment of the messages preceding the one this is responding to! I can say I don't feel personally attacked in general, least of all you personally. I do feel like I'm in a dark room and having a hard time telling who is talking to whom when criticisms are happening, and it's disorienting but not insulting.

trogdor

mm I can see that

I think I may have mentioned something to the effect of thinking maybe you were overwhelmed by the number of people talking

somewhere up there in that mess of things people said

BESW

Thing is: Citizens can't tell when the mods are speaking on their own and when they're representing the team. I assume Mxy's use of "junk" and sarcasm quotes was his own choice, but he gave the impression that he was making those posts on behalf of the team--and so the language he chose represents the team.

So I don't think it really matters if I'm talking to the individual who made that particular choice. I think the mod team as a whole should be thinking about this. It's not so much a criticism as a solution: my answer to "What can the team do to repair the damage?" is "Be more proactive in figuring out how to say things 'gently but firmly' and in a 'respectful' way."

SevenSidedDie

@trogdor Yep, that nearly happened. Since I was the focus of conversation for a bunch of people though, I barely hung on and managed to maintain the threads I was responding to. It was certainly a high energy expenditure, though I learned useful things.

BESW

Feb 12, 2016 23:38

Thank you for that effort. It's part of the solution, I think.

trogdor

I don't envy anyone who is the focus of that much attention

SevenSidedDie

@BESW The thing is that I do think about it; wording is pretty much the essence of my career on this site the last five-going-on-six years. Except for a few failures, I do choose my words quite carefully, and lament that it's not a more widespread habit.

BESW

Aye, there've been a lot of misunderstandings in communicating with you but never disrespect. I do recognise that, and it's one of the reasons I'm reaching out to you in asking the team as a whole to put more effort into choosing its words more carefully.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW My impression of that post was that he was making it on behalf of the site. It's a site issue, not a mod issue.

It's a curious problem: how to not appear like a phalanx when you're not even trying to be, or even aware that you might be perceived that way. I still need to talk to Emrakul about how it was managed on puzzling.

BESW

@SevenSidedDie That's a distinction which is lost on a lot of people. And is frankly irrelevant; mod or not, team representative or not, it was a poor choice of words for anyone to use on a topic that we know is so fraught.

I'm just asking that the team and its individual members work on improving that part of communicating with the site going forward.

@SevenSidedDie It is a jiggly tightrope.

Moderators' actions on the site are always Blue Diamond actions, regardless of whether it's something they would have done anyway without the Blue Diamond.

That's not fair, but it's inevitable.

Happily, what I'm suggesting is effort that I expect of myself and everyone else, not just the mods. It's just got a bigger ripple effect when it's mods.

SevenSidedDie

Feb 12, 2016 23:46

@BESW I think these kinds of things are best brought up without assuming they're explosive. A comment saying "hey, 'junk' is going to be inflammatory, can we have a different title?" would have gone a long way. I do understand that it might not have been obvious at the time that it was where the issue lay though; sometimes that's only in retrospect.

BESW

Reflecting on how things went after the fact is vital. So long as there's learning from it which is used going forward, any effort was not in vain.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Oh yeah, certainly. But we have all these lovely tools lying around that I'm somewhat confused aren't being used. A judicious comment can go a long way when there's an objection to phrasing; I don't see the need to treat phrasing as set in stone, or as reflecting entrenched positions that aren't changeable.

BESW

I'm trying not to criticise for blame's sake--though my frustrations can lead me to slip up. I'd like to help support the reflection and learning.

@SevenSidedDie I... [sigh] Yes, you're right. But when it's Mxy, there's pushback: I've had this exact conversation about moderator actions and choosing words carefully several times over the last few years and most of the time he tells me I'm wrong, overly sensitive, and too demanding.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW He's got a rough, shoot-from-the-hip attitude at times. At times it's useful; others it's a liability. Rather than butting heads with him over that, you can pull in a second mod opinion.

BESW

So I when I saw "junk" in the title, I considered leaving a comment. But in the light of past attempts, I couldn't see what good it would do. I chose not to derail the comments in pursuit of another chastisement for being too sensitive and self-righteous.

SevenSidedDie

Feb 12, 2016 23:53

I'm aware that's not necessarily an obvious, discoverable option, so I want to put that out now if it wasn't already visible.

@BESW I do understand that response. There are only so many spoons, and avoiding a possible confrontation is a sound spoon-preserving strategy.

BESW

@SevenSidedDie You're right, it's often not something which even occurs to me. That is what I think Emrakul can help you with.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW In presenting the visible image of approachable, separate minds. That makes sense, yeah.

BESW

So again, I'm not asking for major changes in policy or decision-making. Just that the mod team works to be more respectful and personable in how those things are shared and implemented. I don't expect magic, but that effort will begin to de-escalate the other problems festering on the site, including the edition and playstyle conflict amongst citizens, so that they can be addressed rationally.

And, yanno. In the future, if you've got someone with a "shoot-from-the-hip attitude" and someone else who's been working for years to choose words carefully, consider which is more useful to tap for a site policy post.

In the past I've offered the mods whatever help and support I can give as a visible member of the community, and that offer stands. You and Mxy have expressed that the chat should be stricter on Be Nice in certain topics, and I agree and will try to help people buy into that.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW When we're tapping at all, yeah. Actually, when it is a Team post we generally workshop it, so if there's a discernible voice it's likely not a Team post.

BESW

@SevenSidedDie [takes notes]

SevenSidedDie

Feb 13, 2016 00:02

@BESW I don't think I've ever thanked you for the offer, so let me do that now. I will keep it in mind!

@BESW That gave me a bit of a twist to the mouth even as I wrote it; such tell-tales shouldn't be needed to be known, right.

BESW

Part of a community is learning those non-explicit cues. But for something that important... no, we shouldn't need to.

SevenSidedDie

(I've sent up the Emrakul Signal, so that's conversation will hopefully be starting sooner or later.)

BESW

@SevenSidedDie You're welcome. I'm not entirely comfortable being such a Big Name, but at least I can try to use it for good.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW I think I'll be using more first-person pronouns in my meta posts, so that the "we"s stand distinctly; just as one thing.

BESW

@SevenSidedDie That's an excellent grammatical cue!

Also (and this is something I've been slacking on in these chats the last couple days because I'm tired and frustrated), the use of "you" in certain contexts is almost always accusatory.

SevenSidedDie

Feb 13, 2016 00:08

@BESW Yeah. I tend to "we" a lot because I'm often speaking for the community to a newcomer, or conveying something normative to a member, so it's something I will have to mindfully avoid when I'm perceived as speaking to the community more generally.

@BESW Yeah, that's one I'm sensitive to using. I don't avoid impersonal "you" as perfectly as I'd like, but the impersonal "one" is very useful!

BESW

In mainsite posts whenever I see myself using "you" as a generic pronoun, changing the sentences to say "I" not only makes it less accusatory or demanding, but also forces me to get more specific and useful.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW That is an interesting transformation… More drastic, perhaps, requiring sentence or paragraph restructurings at times… but yeah, that's a good mental tool. Hm.

BESW

(I usually have to write "you" first and then go back and re-write into "I.")

Yeah, sometimes very drastic. But I've always felt that the resulting re-write is more solid and specific.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Yeah, I can imagine so; I haven't looked at how it works in a specific example, but I can vaguely feel how that could really change how I present an idea. Thanks.

BESW

Other rhetorical techniques I try to use which help keep things equal, civil, and productive: Assume I'm wrong and ask questions; re-phrase answers back to the person and ask if I got it right; agree whenever I see something to agree with, no matter how small; tag opinions with "I think" or "I feel" phrases to avoid stating them as facts.

@SevenSidedDie Check out some of my gm-techniques answers, maybe.

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

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