adam as representation for humans

Conversation started Oct 4, 2011 at 14:47.

Fabian

Oct 4, 2011 14:47

Correct me if I understand it wrong, but a common christian position that it is perfectly fine for god to torment someone for eternity in hell for any infraction, no matter how small (all sins are equal). All civilized courts punish according to the severity of the crime.

wax eagle

@Fabian i see. What if everyone was guilty of murder?

Caleb

@Fabian I would say that's most likely the fault of inadequate definitions of sin. The popular ones don't do the idea justice.

Fabian

@waxeagle But most people never murder anyone

wax eagle

@Fabian sure, but what if everyone was guilty of murder?

Caleb

@Fabian You can't take "all sins are equal" to mean "all sins are small". The problem with sin is it is infraction and a state of rebellion against an infinite God. That means all sins are infinitely big.

Fabian

Oct 4, 2011 14:50

@waxeagle Still, eternal punishment would likely be seen as "cruel and unusual"

wax eagle

@Fabian sure, but can you conceive of something worse than murder?

can you conceive of a crime that is deserving of eternal punishment?

Fabian

@waxeagle Nothing that would justify eternal punishment

CiscoIPPhone

@waxeagle making someone burn in hell for eternity?

wax eagle

@CiscoIPPhone lol.

my point being. if you can conceive of the worst crime you can commit. magnify this by a power of infinity and that to God is what everyone is guilty of, from the moment they are conceived.

this is what total depravity means

Fabian

@waxeagle That is pretty arbitrary, and probably the source of the disagreement

wax eagle

Oct 4, 2011 14:55

@Fabian not arbitrary, its the imputation of Adam's guilt onto humanity

Fabian

@waxeagle I see no justification for punishing someone for something he has not done

wax eagle

@Fabian lol do you have to pay taxes when your representative votes to raise them?

Fabian

@waxeagle Taxes are not punishment, I don't think this analogy works

BeatMe

todays kids don't get sentenced to death if their father is, do you think it would be justified otherwise?

Fabian

Do you think killing the family of a convicted criminal as punishment would be fair?

wax eagle

Oct 4, 2011 14:57

@Fabian hmmm lets try another one. ooh here is a good one. if your country decides to go to war, who makes that call?

BeatMe

that is a equally bad one

wax eagle

@BeatMe ? do you know where I'm going?

Fabian

@waxeagle The elected representatives in parliament, but war is also not really about ethics

wax eagle

@Fabian your country is then nuked by the opposition, you are then paying for the poor decisions of your leaders are you not?

how is that fair?

BeatMe

it's not

and it is not justified

Fabian

Oct 4, 2011 14:59

@waxeagle It is not fair, it happens, but you wouldn't make nuking whole countries the base of a system of morality

wax eagle

@Fabian right but my point, and this is the larger point here, you are responsible in the end for what your representatives have done are you not?

Caleb

How about this one @waxeagle and @Fabian. The issue is representation. Let's say you were born the citizen of one country. Your country has established borders with neighboring countries. One of those neighboring countries has specific laws about imigration and you have to get a specific visa to go there. The law about that was made by politics you had no control over and the border was set before your birth.

Yet you are still subject to it because it was made by people who went before you and who represented all future citizens of those countries.

BeatMe

so i am responsible for the death of jews in my country because my ancestors were the nazis?

your're kidding right?

Fabian

@waxeagle That analogy doesn't work as I vote in elections, I didn't vote for Adam

wax eagle

@Fabian how do you know?

Caleb

Oct 4, 2011 15:01

Adam was YOUR representative. You inherit his nature and citizenship.

Fabian

So, you think punishing people for crimes of their ancestors would be fair?

wax eagle

@Fabian not by human standards, no

BeatMe

oh that again

god did it, then it surely is ok

Fabian

I'll have to go for now, bye

wax eagle

@BeatMe not my point. Also an ancestor is not necessarily a representative.

BeatMe

Oct 4, 2011 15:07

so adam did not necessarily represent us?

wax eagle

In this case Adam was a representative, my dad's grandfather was not my representative in any tangible way

@BeatMe no he definitely was.

BeatMe

i don't think he represented me, but apparently I can't choose?

wax eagle

@BeatMe do you think you can do better?

BeatMe

do what better?

not pushing eternal sin to my kids/representatives

wax eagle

@BeatMe do you think that you could have lived in the garden of eden and not eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good an evil?

BeatMe

Oct 4, 2011 15:09

yeah, i think i can handle that

no, not that

i think i would be more like satan

because i actually think he's the better guy

but i know you disagree with me, so just forget it ;)

BeatMe

Oct 4, 2011 15:23

btw I don't get it why god would place a forbidden fruit anywhere, place humans in there who of couse could get decieved by satan/the snake and eat the fruit (how horrible), while knowing this would happen and then not only punish adam, but also everyone else

at least we got free will not to believe in him, thanks

Conversation ended Oct 4, 2011 at 15:24.

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