Conversation started Mar 31, 2016 at 21:28.
Mar 31, 2016 21:28
anyone have experience with weird indy games designed to make some specific philosophical point?
To some extent, yes.
@NathanTuggy I guess it depends on which point.
And conversely, that is relephant to my interests, because I want to know more about those that I don't know.
@Zachiel Well, I am in the unhappy position of wanting to make one
but... I'm not sure if those are ever all that fun for people who don't already agree with the point
@NathanTuggy And which would the phylosophical point be, in this game of yours?
Mar 31, 2016 21:30
[It's a shame I see a box in ršŸ˜ and not the animalā€¦]
Ah ok. Well, maybe I need some help in defining what a Phylosophical point is in order to find games that fit the concept.
[I see the elephant]
@Zachiel That there can exist magic that science is incapable of comprehending, as shown by the actions of the entities that provide that magic... aka the players
@Anaphory That is a nice little elephant!
@Zachiel [I think I need to change my browser font then.]
unrelatedly, I just got my first chat flag! ... and it was handled before I ever saw it -.-
@NathanTuggy Grats!
Also, I'm very interested in that kind of game too.
Mar 31, 2016 21:33
@BESW Well, fair enough! Maybe it's worth working on then
But since my experience in RPGs is mostly D&D... yeah I am seriously lacking the background to make it happen.
I recently became aware of Dog Eat Dog, which is a game about the insidiously dehumanising nature of colonial power.
@NathanTuggy I don't really get it yet.
@BESW Still need to find a group to play that with.
A few professors at my local university (I live on Guam, which is not yet really post-colonial) have asked me to help incorporate it into their curriculum.
You might also look at 14 Days, which is a twosie game about managing chronic pain.
And from a design perspective, you'll probably want to delve into the old Forge articles, as that's the original community of designers focused on learning how to make games with the primary goal of making players feel something.
@Anaphory Each player is a non-human entity (presumably either immortal, or a very well-organized society) with a good deal of power but some goal or goals that they are unable to accomplish without mortals' unwitting aid. Each entity therefore arranges for elaborate deceptions in order to trade the power they do have with mortals for reasons and with limitations no mortal correctly understands.
Dogs in the Vineyard (later revamped into a slightly less problematic setting with The Princes' Kingdom) is a good example of a Forgeite game: in it, the PCs are a group of teenagers with absolute authority to enforce morality however they feel is necessary.
Mar 31, 2016 21:38
@BESW That's fair, yeah. Thanks for the recommendations for specific games!
I've heard of DitV before vaguely
The Forge is not the end-point for this kind of design theory, but it's definitely one of the earliest starting points.
Later design work towards these goals builds on Forgeite thought and practice, or is in direct response to problems the later designers see in the Forge.
[thinks]
I recently listened to a podcast that might be helpful; it discussed how "fun" is not a useful goal for an RPG designer to have, and mentioned many games (including Dog Eat Dog) with other goals that are engaging and rewarding but definitely not "fun."
(They called Dog Eat Dog "terrifying.")
Hrm. I'm not really sure I want to be the kind of designer that makes a game that nobody likes but everybody considers a classic, any more than I would want to have written Catcher in the Rye.
@BESW I normally hate horror and even more thriller. I still want to play Dog eat Dog.
@Anaphory Dog Eat Dog isn't a game that terrifies you with its story. It's a game that challenges players to think about themselves and their contexts and assumptions in ways they probably aren't comfortable with.
My group was less emotionally affected than many I've read about, because we already think about and talk about those ideas.
I am easily terrified at what humans are willing or capable to do.
Mar 31, 2016 21:44
@Anaphory and do regularly as we speak.
One of the panel members is creating a game about how the 1% behaves toward the underprivileged during a zombie apocalypse.
... wow.
Duly saved!
@Anaphory btw, was my explanation at all helpful?
Mar 31, 2016 21:48
I also suggest seeing if you can get your hands of Nightmares of Mine. It's about running horror games, but it's got some brilliant analysis of the nature of story structures in RPGs (and how they aren't like anything else) which I've found helpful as a player, a GM, and a casual designer with all sorts of games.
Hmm.
My local library has a fairly terrible selection, but perhaps somehow...
[Argh reading]
@BESW @NathanTuggy Would you say Paranoia, DRYH, My Life With Master or Microscope belong here?
Well, I'm of the opinion that every RPG text can be read as a philosophical manifesto declaring the kinds of elements and structures which create a certain kind of value in stories.
@NathanTuggy So, ā€œScience cannot prove or disprove magic if the powers of magic don't trade with the scientistsā€? And not ā€œA clever deception is indistinguishable from real magicā€?
Mar 31, 2016 21:54
From the vague ideas I have of those games, probably? Paranoia fits a little less well, though, I think; it's not really as philosophical.
@Anaphory It's more "a sufficiently clever deception cannot be correctly pierced and reduced to scientific expression"
@NathanTuggy 'kay. Got it.
My way of looking for strong philosophical points would be role playing poems.
But some of the points they make are about role playing games.
which goes saying more about the nature of play and conversation than about deep truth.
Hmm, yeah.
From what I've seen, good "thinky" RPGs generally don't try to tell us what to think, but instead ask us to think about something.
More Socratic than didactic, if you will.
That makes sense
14 Days asserts that chronic pain limits the resources you have available to act. It then asks you to think about what implications that has on your life and how you would deal with it.
user15026
Mar 31, 2016 22:03
@BESW Oh, I like the idea of that
Dogs in the Vineyard asks what risks or compromises you'll take in order to enforce a moral code.
Dog Eat Dog asks how you will deal with being on one side or the other of a systemic power imbalance.
Each of them contains, encoded within its rules, postulates about the context in which you can act and the power of your actions.
Implicit in the play, then, is the question of whether you agree with those postulates.
There's a card game Marrying Mr. Darcy, in which players are Pride and Prejudice style society women who collect handfuls of cards about how intelligent, beautiful, skilled, and well-connected they are.
But they can only use those attributes when a card is drawn from the deck representing a man interacting with them in a certain way.
So players sit there with handfuls of excellent qualities, unable to act until the deck deigns to randomly permit them a moment of empowerment.
Then there's Kagematsu, an RPG in which a samurai is petitioned by a series of women begging him to save them. For each woman, the samurai judges whether he loves or pities them. Those are his only options.
But every game does this to some extent.
D&D places limits on the nature and resolution of action, making claims about the absoluteness of morality and the supremacy of combat as a mode of conflict resolution.
Cards Against Humanity makes explicit assertions about the nature of humanity.
lol
Cards Against Humanity makes all kinds of explicit assertions.
I'm given to understand some of them are even ... explicit. -.-
Yes, and coded into its premise is not only the assertion that people want permission to say those things, but also a postulate about what kind of permissions are necessary.
Mar 31, 2016 22:21
@BESW Following that train of thought we're about two hours and three bottles of vodka away from declaring that by limiting available gameplay options to a couple not-too-long lists you can choose from D&D posits that life is inherently limited and creativity can only be exercised within prescribed boundaries set in place by an almighty Gygaxian creator, who can be, however, overruled by his descendant, the GM, thus proving existence of a Christian god.
I wouldn't need that much vodka, given that I've never drank in my life.
Who said I'd be sharing?
At the end of the day, though, I see all games as saying --though most not deliberately or consciously-- "This is a set of rules you will find value in following."
(it would kill me though and I guess we would have a definite answer to the question)
"Philosophy" or "issue" games are simply ones whose designers decided to make that the primary point rather than a tool or accident on the way toward a different goal.
EG, games in which the value in the rules is found at least in part through the thoughts the rules make us think, not just the actions the rules have us take.
(Monopoly is a biting commentary on the injustice of the free capitalist market, but that's not why we play it.)
Mar 31, 2016 22:26
(We play it because we hate life? :P)
(at least, to hear a lot of people tell it ;))
The Game of Life is more explicitly commentary on the American Dream.
...but whiles its rules and randomisation do effectively critique the assumption that the American Dream is something we can earn through hard work, they make it a gruelling experience with little reward except the trite social commentary.
By comparison, Monopoly (especially with its original bidding-war rules intact) encourages strategy and social interaction between players which simultaneously blunts the drudgery of its randomised premise and effectively encodes its postulate that the primary skill of the successful capitalist is not hard work, but the ability to exploit chance and manipulate others.
(Worth remembering that Monopoly was a Depression-era game.)
So, to go back to your original premise, @NathanTuggy.
my biggest gripe with Monopoly is how long it takes to finish a game of it
@trogdor Add back in the bidding-war rules. It gets a lot faster.
but in that context, in that era, maybe that was a good thing
If your game is about an impossibility, hard-code that into the rules from the very beginning.
Mar 31, 2016 22:38
@BESW I actually had an electronic handheld device that was litterally just for playing monopoly, and it did have the bidding war rules in it
I liked that
Like how Cthulhu Dark says "If you fight any creature you meet, you will die."
Or how Headspace says you automatically succeed on any action you take within your own competency area.
These are statements about the kind of world you live in and the kind of story you're telling.
The bolder you paint the boundaries of your system, the more focused it becomes on what's inside the boundaries and where the boundaries are.
Your system is about the line between the explicable and the ineffable, right?
I guess that's a decent way to describe it
... and how something can be partially grasped but not accurately understood in any depth
Are you making assertions about what is and is not ineffable, or are you inviting the players to define that distinction through play?
EG, are you saying "These things are ineffable," or are you saying, "Some things are ineffable"?
The latter, definitely.
That's very cool, but also probably more difficult to code into your design. Hmm.
Mar 31, 2016 22:44
Yeah, my initial idea was to have each player pick a set of layered goals and limitations
Off the top of my head, I'd recommend hard-coding an aggressive "let it ride" attitude into the game play.
when each goal/limitation becomes unhelpful in the grander scheme, one or more mortals find out the next level down
That is, a failure or success remains failed or successful unless something drastic happens to justify a re-try.
So as the story unfolds, the players are creating an ever-growing list of Things Which Cannot Be Understood.
I'm big on discovering what's going on through play, rather than defining everything at the start.
Mar 31, 2016 22:47
Interesting...
That general philosophy is fairly common among these games as I understand it
Thus your rules would say "Some thing are ineffable. Play this game to experience hitting that wall and think about how it makes you feel."
...I wonder if Lovecraftesque would be helpful to consider in that context.
Incidentally, any ideas on balancing the two different viewpoints? Playing as the magic-granting entities is essential, but playing as mortals who are necessarily unaware of the truth is also important.
That's where Lovecraftesque might come in handy.
Maybe have each player control a mortal character that's generally drawing power from another player's entity?
Can you elaborate on that a bit?
It's a game where there's only one PC, shared between the players who also take turns GMing scenes and deciding what's really going on based on what happens in each scene before they move on to the next.
Mar 31, 2016 22:51
Hmm
The whole theme of the game is that the PC is a hapless Lovecraft-style protagonist caught up in something far bigger than he may ever be able to understand.
There's a draft of the game available on its Kickstarter page.
That's a decent start, although another factor is that my system needs to cover, at least in principle, all of history... though not necessarily in any one game, I guess
You might also want to look at Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple, where each player has "their" PC, but the rest of the group gets to narrate the PC's failures while the player only gets to narrate their PC's successes.
@NathanTuggy is the go-to game for non-chronological collaborative history-building.
Ah, cool
You can probably draw on it for inspiration.
I don't know if it'd be useful, but you might also want to check out as an example of players controlling both mortal characters and the gods who preside over them.
Mar 31, 2016 22:58
That sounds plausible, yeah
The premise and goal of the game is very different from yours, so it probably won't be directly inspirational, but it's good background reading.
... most fundamentally, it sounds like GOG has aligned goals, rather than opposed
The Great Ork Gods hate the Orks they preside over, and have Spite points to make the Orks lives harder, which they earn every time an Ork succeeds on an action in that god's portfolio.
Oh, hey, interesting
The Ork's stats are just "How much does each god hate me?" and "How much do other Orks envy me?"
Orks are disposable, and you're expected to go through a couple each session.
Mar 31, 2016 23:11
I should probably get going, but thanks for all the ideas!
I hope to hear about your progress! ttfn.
 
Conversation ended Mar 31, 2016 at 23:12.