Forces of Literature

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 01:59

You know what, that's a good thing. You and @steelersquirrel from what I've seen look like excellent people, who can lead the community from any role or position :)

BESW

I'm not yet sure this is a Stack where I will be consistently active; I'm seeing potential for a repeat of the worldbuilding shift.

Riker

?

Zizouz212

Worldbuilding shift?

BESW

worldbuilding.se is no longer a place where I feel my experience is useful, because it's focused on speculation about extrapolation of the physical sciences without much interest in what I consider worldbuilding: the art of designing a setting to support the themes and requirements of the narrative or game or whatever you're going to use the world for.

Zizouz212

So where do you see Literature going (I can't quite see the shift in a Literature context)?

BESW

Jan 31, 2017 02:05

Lit.se is in the throes of figuring out what it's about and what it values.

It would be very easy to slide into a narrow populist concept of literature, and to equate the consumption of media with critical thinking about media.

steelersquirrel

@Zizouz212 Thank you so much! That's much appreciated :)

Zizouz212

@steelersquirrel Really! I truly mean it!

steelersquirrel

:)

Zizouz212

@BESW I find that interesting. So you're suggesting that the site might narrow itself down into a particular subset of literature thinking sort of thing?

BESW

I'm especially concerned because scifi.se is immersed in subcultures of critique where authorial intent is elevated to the level of a fetish (ie Word of God), and it's very easy to forget that there are other ways of reading a text.

2

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:08

I had never thought of that actually. But it's completely valid.

BESW

As a very blunt example, Rand's original answer to this question simply invoked an essay by Poe about his intent when writing the poem, and considered that conclusive.

Zizouz212

It's also weird because are we to deem an expert opinion as an answer, or the author opinion. I wonder how that might come across for questions that ask for interpretation - is one sole thought correct? Darn, this is boggling my mind :P

BESW

Many people think Poe's essay on the subject is a hot mess of half-truths written to defend himself against accusations of plagiarism.

I gave Rand advice, and it's a better answer now because it compares the author's statements to evidence within the work itself.

Riker

interesting: I've approved/rejected more edits than community

BESW

@Zizouz212 This is the kind of dualistic thinking that lit.se can't sustain, and makes it difficult for a really robust literary discussion to unfold within the Stack mechanical structure.

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:12

Yeah...

BESW

It's not about right or wrong, it's about supportable and unsupportable.

Zizouz212

Sorry, I'm slightly speechless here. (I'm also kind of moving back and forth to browsing around, and studying for my exam though...)

BESW

GS/BS is vital to the health of a lit.se that actually tackles these questions in a way which attracts professionals and learned experts.

But for many people (yourself included, I suspect), "Poe says Lenore is dead" doesn't look like a subjective answer at all.

steelersquirrel

@BESW Good point. My sister who is extremely well versed in all of Poe's work agrees with that as well

Zizouz212

@BESW I wouldn't be surprised. The key is how do we find an adequate community to start of well with the thinking that all viewpoints are equally valid when supported.

BESW

Jan 31, 2017 02:14

So the community will push back against the need to vigorously support their answers, because our community is mostly composed of people who are used to a different form of analysis.

Zizouz212

Actually, that reminds me of one of the novels I read for my AP English course. Many of my friends' answers to questions relied heavily on the author's essay, A Clockwork Condition

BESW

In short: movies.se and sff.se are bringing in lots of interested people with experience consuming the text, but with little understanding of how broad the scope of analysis really is.

Zizouz212

@BESW Very true. It's all cite this and it's right. The mindset harms other viewpoints that could just as well be supported.

BESW

I'm not confident lit.se will evolve out from under the inertia of the analytical pigeonholes we're bringing with us from other communities.

We also see this in discussions of scope, where for example, there's a vocal contingent which believes it's beneficial to analyse an opera's lyrics divorced from its music.

I've worked professionally with a literary magazine that explicitly created a space for Pacific authors whose work was not recognised as literary by either Western or Eastern journals. I'm very familiar with arguments about what is and isn't literature, and they're all artificial constructs. Usually, they're used to draw a line in the social sand between what's valued and what's valueless.

By creating literature.se, we've inserted ourselves into that space and given ourselves the task of making that value judgement.

But we don't really seem interested in facing that head-on.

enderland

I think the problem is many SE sites of "experts" are more "armchair experts" than anything else

4

DVK-on-Ahch-To

Jan 31, 2017 02:20

@b_jonas Worst? Grey Goo will descend from the heavens and nan-consume everything.

BESW

@enderland This is why I'm most active on RPG.SE, where armchair experts can tackle rules questions but the lion's share of the site's value comes from drawing on real-life experiences.

steelersquirrel

@enderland Sooooo true! Well said!

BESW

Don't get me wrong though, I think the vast majority of Euro-American lit crit is conducted by armchair experts who don't consider how their sciences might result in action.

What I know about literary analysis, I know largely in self-defense.

Zizouz212

Sorry, I kind of zoned out into my notes there

BESW

No worries, I'mo get some coffee.

Napoleon Wilson

Jan 31, 2017 02:25

Neither should we have a philosophical debate about what is and isn't literature stop the site from finding a scope that it can conveniently be about. A proper site scope isn't an automatical statement on what is and isn't to be seen as literature in the eternity of the world's conciousness, neither is it a serious attempt to settle a philosophical debate at a scale that a litte SE site's meta is unfit for.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Randal'Thor joke as in a question that's a joke? That seems like a bad idea. However, humor tag as in questions about humorous content in literature, may be worthwhile.

BESW

@NapoleonWilson These are not things I'm calling for.

Napoleon Wilson

Good.

BESW

You've got a tendency to put words into my mouth, and it's not helpful.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Gilles Hey, I tried my best. My Meta foo is generally weak.

Napoleon Wilson

Jan 31, 2017 02:26

Agreed.

enderland

The bigger risk would be alienating actual experts, by watering down or otherwise trivializing their knowledge and selling a cheap substitute

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Hey, I proposed that fortune cookie sayings be on topic...so, there's that ;)

BESW

A lot of the issues I'm bringing up about scope are hotly debated, and it's awareness of them, not taking sides, that will attract people more familiar with the issues than we are.

But if we want to act like there's some neutral concept of literature divorced from real-life erasure and marginalisation, that's a one-way ticket to nowheresville, population: Texan textbooks.

SevenSidedDie

@enderland That's what I'd be looking for after private Beta. For example, do any of the vast number of academic analytical frameworks ever get used/invoked, and if so, how does the community position itself relative to that academic approach.

(FYI, I'm not in the private Beta. It's odd being able to only see the site through the lens of chat. Interesting, too, though.)

enderland

@SevenSidedDie it's trivial to get an account even on a private beta, FYI

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:30

@SevenSidedDie You've been spying on us?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Randal'Thor Computers lesson 101. Part one. It's not called "computery stuff". It's called "IT" </nerd> </pedant>

SevenSidedDie

@enderland It's locked to only Area 51 committers.

enderland

@SevenSidedDie false

Zizouz212

@BESW I completely agree. Not only that, but this understanding is what will help everyone grow and develop a common community-developed approach that's accepting of all.

SevenSidedDie

> To log in, you must have commited to the Area 51 site proposal and received the invitation email. Click the invitation link in the email to log in!

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:32

@SevenSidedDie Go to the area 51 page and enter the site through the link there

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@steelersquirrel Nope, I'd not make a good mod (and even if I did, I can't honestly promise to commit enough time to be an effective one. Moddery, from talking to people who did moderation job on SE, is a LOT LOT LOT of hard effort)

BESW

I don't expect people here to know about Harold Bloom's influence theory (I'd be happier if Bloom didn't), or Houston Wood's ideas about the need to retheorise Oceanic texts. But we need to be open to the idea that they exist and they matter: that the ways we think about literature are not the only ways nor the right ways, and the more ways we can represent the better the site will be.

2

SevenSidedDie

@Zizouz212 Oh really?! What an odd message then.

Zizouz212

@SevenSidedDie It does that if you're trying to access the site directly without having an account. Not sure why though

SevenSidedDie

@Zizouz212 Because puzzles are more fun in UX design…

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:33

lol :P

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@enderland I tried bringing that concern up on Meta and it seems people strongly disagree

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Okay. No worries :)

SevenSidedDie

Welp, that's for another day perhaps. Tonight is game night, and I'm running it, and my partner just got home so's I can head out. Later!

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@steelersquirrel I'm not sure fortune cookies have enough literary content (narrative, at least) to be worth including in scope, sorry.

BESW

@SevenSidedDie Ooh, enjoy.

SevenSidedDie

Jan 31, 2017 02:35

@BESW Session 4 of our JRPG Dungeon World campaign. Tonight we open with the cliffhanger of why are they being attacked by a swarm of voles with moth wings.

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Hehehe! Bummer. My hopes and dreams are shattered! :P

BESW

@SevenSidedDie ...because they're in the Avatar setting?

@Zizouz212 A big challenge facing us is that definitions of literature have social weight. Knowing and understanding literature is a hallmark of a valuable person, while a literary canon is a hallmark of a valuable culture. This means discussions about literature quickly turn into discussions of personal identity and worth.

It's hard to discuss literature dispassionately when it feels like we're discussing our own selves.

Zizouz212

@BESW So in other words, particular forms of literature are held to higher value based on culture and the individual?

BESW

yup.

steelersquirrel

Getting deep in here... ;)

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:43

That's so true.

@steelersquirrel lol, I need to have these sorts of conversations before I start my exam tomorrow to get my brain thinking :P

BESW

And being able to quote them, or explain them, or recognise references to them, is a sign of being a valuable person.

steelersquirrel

@Zizouz212 Hehehe! Fair enough :)

BESW

But being able to quote or explain other forms of literature is devalued.

Zizouz212

So in Western Culture, Shakespearian poems are held to higher value, and a person who recognizes them is viewed smart, whereas a person recognizing say, a traditional Indian poem would not be viewed so highly.

BESW

Yes. Or, say, in this community I suspect my ability to quote the British murder mystery author Margery Allingham is less valued than my ability to quote Tolkien.

Both of which pale in broader society beside my having memorised TS Eliot and Shakespeare.

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:46

Surely though, society has a grand role. Shakespeare is taught in every year in my school - I would never touch a book with say, a Russian or Indian author.

BESW

Right, and that's a major part of it.

Zizouz212

Actually, the only book I've read from an international author during my last four years was The God of Small Things

And the only reason why I was able to read that book, was because it's appeared on the AP exam

BESW

The literary canon (those works which are valuable to study) is what's taught by the good schools.

And what do good schools teach? The literary canon.

Allingham has a great satire of this, where a low-class man decides he should be able to drop quotes like his upper-class friends, so he buys a book of famous quotes.

He quickly decides these quotes are rubbish because they have nothing to do with his life experience, and instead he starts making up his own aphorisms.

Zizouz212

So it's a viewpoint that Literature carries equal value, determined by the individual and his/her experiences?

BESW

I think Allingham's probably a bit more complex than that, but yes--I think she's digging toward that kind of idea.

Zizouz212

Jan 31, 2017 02:50

It probably is... My Grade 12 brain is probably very inexperienced and shallow :P

BESW

From Houston Wood's "Preparing to Retheorize the Texts of Oceania"...

> Although they seldom feel powerful themselves, Euro-American critics today still typically function as defenders of the rights of elites. In their writing and teaching, critics speak on behalf of and help to educate the capital possessing and capital managing classes. Williams points out that whereas in earlier eras scholars and critics offered learned commentary on and elaborations of knowledge, later critics of the reconceived literary focused on "the conscious exercise of 'taste,' 'sensibility,' and 'discrimination'" (1977, 49).

(This is the sort of thing on which I rest my career as a print-media layout designer who's open to intersectionality and interested in designing for cultural contact zones.)

Zizouz212

I don't know what to say...

BESW

Like I said, I know about literary theory largely in self-defense.

Zizouz212

No, you're very smart. I think it's just a lot for me to take in :)

BESW

These are deep, complex issues and just being aware of them is a massive step in the right direction.

They're the forces that rumble underneath a site with the gall to call itself "literature" and if we ignore them, chances are we'll be swallowed in self-referential obscurity.

On a personal note, if you want to read more international literature, especially outside the Euro-American sphere, I could make some recommendations and point you at some well-curated lists.

Hamlet

Jan 31, 2017 03:01

@BESW yes please

Everything you've written so far has been fantastic

Would you mind shooting me an email at [email protected] ? I would love to ask you some questions privately

Zizouz212

@BESW That would be great! It may be a while before I can get to them though, because of school. I've had a super rough semester because of a whole bunch of complex things, so I need to work very hard next semester and somehow juggle 5 courses.

BESW

@Hamlet Sent.

@Zizouz212 When you've got some time, we can talk about the sorts of stuff you like and are interested in, and I'll see what I can point you at.

On general grounds for anybody interested, medievalPOC does semi-annual Fiction Week events, and is just starting one up again now.

She focuses more on the characters than the authors when compiling the lists, and it's mostly scifi/fantasy, but there's a lot of good authors from a wide variety of backgrounds, cultures, countries, and occasionally epistemologies.

Hamlet

Jan 31, 2017 03:16

@BESW have you read Toni Morrison's Playing in the Dark? It's a fantastic book: it changed the way I thought about race, gender, and literature.

Zizouz212

@BESW Haha, that could take forever. I don't even know what I'm interested in myself

For what it's worth, I can tell you where I've applied for university

BESW

@Hamlet I have not, though I've probably been exposed to thinking inspired by it.

I'm a graphic designer who works around a lot of literature/composition folks in the Pasifika context. Most of my in-depth reading about literary theory has been about Oceanic challenges to mainland thought.

So I get the mainland thought second-hand.

(I read a Harold Bloom book... kind of on a dare. The Authorship Question is perversely hilarious.)

(Speaking of the social value of literature, the Authorship Question usually boils down to an argument over whether a middle-class man could've written the works attributed to Shakespeare, or if they had to be written by nobility.)

Zizouz212

I'm going to step out... It's been great talking to you, I just have an exam tomorrow, and it's 10:30 pm here, and I'm still studying :/

BESW

Don't let me keep you from your edyoomukayshun.

Zizouz212

Lol thanks. Exams on Canadian and World Issues, which oddly has connections to this

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