Conversation started Apr 21, 2020 at 5:08.
Apr 21, 2020 05:08
Question:
A system is shown in the figure. A man standing on the block is pulling the rope. Velocity of the point of string in contact with the man is 2 m/s downwards. The velocity of the block will be [assume that the block does not rotate]
My approach:
Can you please tell why the above method is wrong, sir?
Hmm, I would have said 1 m/s as well ...
Oh, wait, no.
Ok sir. I forgot to mention: The answer as per my book is 2 m/s.
Call the string velocity at the man $v$ downwards, and the block velocity $u$ upwards, then it is true that $v = 2u$. But the question says the man pulls the string at 2m/s and the man is moving because he is standing on the block. So that means $v + u = 2$, not $v = 2$.
No, wait, is the string velocity relative to the man or not?
@JohnRennie Ok sir. Then $u=2/3$ is also incorrect. Also I don't know whether the speed mentioned in the question (2 m/s) is relative to the ground or the man. How did you infer that it's wrt. the man, sir?
@JohnRennie I don't know sir. I've directly quoted the question from my book. We need to conclude from the available data. Possibly in a way that will yield the correct answer - 2 m/s.
Ah, OK, I get it. The donwards velocity of the string is equal to th upwards velocity of the block. Your figures on the diagram are wrong.
Apr 21, 2020 05:18
@JohnRennie Ok sir. I hope the problem is with the horizontal part of the string where I've written $2v$ instead of $v$. But I've given some thought and since the pulley itself moves upward with a velocity $v$, I added them both to get $2v$. Could you tell why is this incorrect?
These sorts of problems can be very confusing.
Give me a moment to think about it.
@JohnRennie Ok sir. I thought it was only me who was confused :-)
Apr 21, 2020 05:35
@GuruVishnu OK, I've drawn a diagram but I'm afraid it's a bit messy.
@JohnRennie No issues. I'll try to understand it.
The point of this is that the velocity of the string at a fixed point it the rate that the length of the string is changing.
Ok sir. But I don't think the string is fixed at a fixed point. Every point on the string is moving.
So suppose we write the length of the string in terms of the position of the block $L = f(x)$. Now we differentiate wrt time to get $dL/dt = f'(x)$ and $dL/dt$ is the velocity of the string.
Now, the red dashed lines are fixed. The black dashed lines change position as the block moves. Let's write down the equation for the length of the string measured from the point where it is tied to the block to the point where it intersects the lower red line.
Ok sir.
Apr 21, 2020 05:41
The first bit of the string (the rightmost vertical bit) has length $h-x$. Yes?
Yes sir.
The next vertical bit of the string has length $h - (x+a)$
Yes sir.
Then the horizontal bit between the two leftmost pulleys doesn't change. I'' going to ignore that because when we differentiate any constants will disappear.
Finally the leftmost vertical bit has length $x$.
Fine. Understood so far. This seems to be better approach.
Apr 21, 2020 05:44
So the total length so far (excluding the constant bits) is $L = (h-x) + (h - (x+a)) + x$
Ok sir.
There is also the length of the bits of the string that wrap round the pulleys, but they will also be constant so I'm going to ignore them.
Simplifying gives $L = 2h - x - a$
And differentiating gives $dL/dt = -dx/dt$
So $v_{string} = -v_{block}$
Thank you very much sir :-)
Now I understood this. And also learnt a better approach.
You'll encounter other questions like this where you have to find the velocity of some bit of a complicated system.
The best option is always to find the equation for the position of that bit then differentiate wrt time.
It's easy to get confused if you try to work out relative velocities.
Fine. Could you please tell where did you learn this method? Or did you find it out of practice?
Apr 21, 2020 05:53
I think I arrived at it by years of trial and error :-)
 
Conversation ended Apr 21, 2020 at 5:58.