Conversation started Apr 9, 2020 at 9:37.
Apr 9, 2020 09:37
why will there be stimulated emmision if ratio is greater than 1
The statement is simpler than you think.
It's just saying that the rate of spontaneous emission is $A_{21}N_2$ and the rate of stimulated emission is $B_{21}N_2\rho$. OK so far?
All it is saying is that if we want stimulated emission to dominate we need $B_{21}N_2\rho \gg A_{21}N_2$
Or another way of putting this is that $B_{21}N_2\rho/A_{21}N_2 \gg 1$
Apr 9, 2020 09:58
what do they mean by population inversion
@JohnRennie
@Aladdin Suppose you start with atoms in their ground state i.e. $N_1 = N_{tot}$ and $N_2 = 0$, where $N_{tot}$ is the total density of the atoms. OK so far?
Now suppose we shine in some light with an intensity $\rho$. The rate at which atoms in the ground state are excited to the upper state is:
$$ \frac{dN_1}{dt} = -B_{12}N_1 \rho $$
And let's suppose that natural emission is slow so the decay rate is dominated by stimulated emission, then the rate the atoms decay back to the ground state is:
$$ \frac{dN_2}{dt} =-B_{21} N_2 \rho $$
@Aladdin OK so far?
Why -
Why what?
These are just the basic equations for the transition rates when we shine a light at our atoms.
Apr 9, 2020 10:10
Ok
If you're not sure what I'm saying we need to sort this out before going any further.
What I'm saying is that suppose we have some density $N_1$ of atoms in the ground state and we shine a light on them then the rate that $N_1$ decreases is equal to the rate that the atoms get excited into the upper state.
Apr 4 at 10:38, by John Rennie
$$ R_{12} = B_{12} N_1 \rho $$
U didn't write - here
so i was a bit confused
@Aladdin The rate $R_{12}$ is the rate that $N_1$ atoms get converted to $N_2$ atoms. Yes?
So it is the rate of decrease of $N_1$.
i.e. it is equal to $-dN_1/dt$
Apr 9, 2020 10:14
ah got it
OK. So we start with all atoms in the 1 state and shine light on them. $N_1$ starts decreasing and $N_2$ starts increasing. But as $N_2$ starts increasing we get stimulated emission at the rate $N_2 B_{21} \rho$ so state 2 atoms start decaying back to state 1.
If we graph $N_1$ and $N_2$ as a function of time it's going to look like this:
We approach a constant value when $R_{12} = R_{21}$ i.e. the rate atoms excite from 1 to 2 is the same as the rate they decay from 2 to 1. Yes?
And if we substitute our equations for $R_{12}$ and $R_{21}$ we get:
$$ B_{12} N_1 \rho = B_{21} N_2 \rho $$
And we know that $B_{12} = B_{21}$ so we simply get:
$$ N_1 = N_2 = \tfrac12 N_{tot} $$
OK so far?
So by starting with our atoms and shining light on them we can't get $N_2 > N_1$ . The best we can do is make them equal.
Apr 9, 2020 10:23
ok
But if we want to make a laser we need the rate of stimulated emission to be higher than the rate of excitation. That is we want our laser to be a net producer of light i.e. it produces more light than it absorbs.
For a two level system in equilibrium this implies that T has to be negative if N2 has to be greater than N1. Hence it is not possible to obtain population inversion between E2 and E1 in a two level system and it may not be possible to get a LASER beam from absorption and emission between two energy levels
And this can only happen if $N_2 > N_1$. Yes?
But we've just shown you can't have $N_2 > N_1$ and that means lasers are impossible!
Apr 9, 2020 10:26
hmm
And that's quite true if you consider just the two states 1 and 2.
Lasers work by having a third state.
the next description moves to three level system
is this what you mean
Yes.
The idea is that the light excites atoms from state 1 to state 2, but that state 2 decays quickly to another state 3.
But remember that light only stimulates emission when the energy of the light $hf$ is equal to the energy difference between the levels.
In this case it means $hf = E_2 - E_1$
But level three has a energy different from level two, so the light cannot cause stimulated emission from level 3.
And that means $N_3$ can just keep increasing and it can get bigger than $N_1$ and $N_2$.
And this is exactly what lasers do.
Apr 9, 2020 10:36
And that means $N_3$ can just keep increasing and it can get bigger than $N_1$ and $N_2$.
How does this relate to lasers
in lasers the stimulated emmision causes a large number of atoms to decay only using a single photon of favorable energy
i guess the same is happening here
What happens is that $N_3$ starts increasing and can get large because there is no stimulated emission.
But ...
Eventually one of the atoms in state 3 is going to decay by natural emission, and when it does this produces a photon of energy $hf = E_3 - E_1$ i.e. just the right energy to cause stimuated emission from state 3 to state 1.
oh
that makes sense
So that photon causes stimulated emission the first time it hits another atom in state 3, and now we have two photons. Those two photons cause stimulated emission and now we have 4 photons, then 8, then 16 ... you get the idea.
And photons move pretty fast, so in a few nanoseconds all the atoms in the state 3 relax and produce an intense burst of light.
Apr 9, 2020 10:43
got it
how can we explain 4 level system
instead decay happens to E2
and then fast decay to E1
In real lasers there are all sorts of tricks and tweaks used to try and improve the intensity of the laser light, and it can get very complicated. Few lasers actually use the simple three level system I've described.
You'd have to post a link to the 4 level laser that you are talking about for me to see why the four level design has been used and what the advantages of it are.
The 3 level laser I described is what we call a pulse laser. The state 3 atoms build up until a natural decay happens and then the stimulated decay causes all the state 3 atoms to decay in a fraction of the second to produce an intense pulse of light.
But once all the state 3 atoms have decayed the light emission stops, and no more light is emitted until the state 3 population has had time to build up again.
So this type of laser produces very short, intense pulses of light with relative long periods of no emission in between the pulses. OK so far?
But sometimes we want a laser that produces a continuous beam not pulses. For example a laser pointer as used in lecture theatres across the world. So we have to figure out some way to make the light production continuous not pulsed. And that's what four level lasers can do.
Apr 9, 2020 10:55
ok
Go back to our three level system for a moment.
Remember that to get lasing from state 3 to state 1 we require $N_3 \gg N_1$. And this can happen because we get atoms building up in state 3.
But the problem is that we get get the atoms into state 3 though the process $1 \to 2 \to 3$
And if $N_1$ has got small compared to $N_3$ that means the rate at which $N_3$ is increasing must also be small.
OK so far?
Apr 9, 2020 11:01
ok
So when the pulse starts $N_3$ starts falling rapidly, but because $N_1 \ll N_3$ the rate at which we can replenish the population in state 3 is small and $N_3$ falls essentially to zero. That's why we get a pulse and not a steady beam.
Is this all OK so far? If you're happy with this we can get onto how the four level system avoids this problem.
ah ok
With the four level system the light we shine in excites atoms from 1 to 4, so we end up with $N_1$ roughly equal to $N_4$.
Then atoms in state 4 decay to state 3, and atoms in state 3 decay to state 2 and emit light with an energy $hf = E_3 - E_2$. Finally the atoms in state 2 decay to state 1.
And we generally try and make $N_3$ and $N_2$ much lower than $N_1$ and $N_4$.
So what happens is that $N_1$ and $N_4$ are roughly equal and roughly constant, because if $N_3$ and $N_2$ are small then the lasing process doesn't change $N_1$ and $N_4$ that much.
Apr 9, 2020 11:10
i didn't understand one thing
With the four level system the light we shine in excites atoms from 1 to 4, so we end up with $N_1$ roughly equal to $N_4$.
So we get a more or less continuous rate for the 1 to 4 process, and therefore a continuous rate for the 4 to 3 process. So the $N_3$ population stays roughly constant and emits light at a roughly constant rate.
how do we come to this conclusion
54 mins ago, by John Rennie
user image
Remember this?
yes
at some time N1=N2
Yes. And in this case the light is exciting atoms from state 1 to 4, so we get the same curves only the red line would be $N_4$.
Apr 9, 2020 11:12
ok
So the $N_3$ population stays roughly constant and emits light at a roughly constant rate.
u mean when it decays
I guess to really understand this you'd have to write down the equations for $R_{14}$, $R_{43}$, $R_{32}$ and $R_{21}$.
But that's going to be messy and I don't have any great enthusiasm for doing that.
yeah my book also doesnt go into that
so just knowig the process is enough
The main point is that the four level process avoids the problem of $N_1$ getting so small that the first excitation step gets slow.
Apr 9, 2020 11:17
but we will get better laser in three level systems
though not continious
Both types have their uses.
The advantage of the pulse laser is it's kind of an optical capacitor. It stores up energy and releases it as an intense burst.
So you can use pulse lasers to get really high intensities.
But for a laser pointer you want a continuous beam not a flickering one.
So both types have their uses.
 
Conversation ended Apr 9, 2020 at 11:19.