Unrelated to this discussion, but related to this one. I have heard that the 5 daily prayers comes from the 5 prayers of Yom Kippur. Is there any support of this in Islam? @AlUmmatمجاهد @goldPseudo

Actually, that discussion should be in the other chatroom could one of you move it there?

@Daniel first i've heard of it

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@goldPseudo I don't remember where I heard that from originally

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob ?

given that both religions come from God, the parallel would not surprise me. i'm not familiar with the praying customs of Yom Kippur though.

@goldPseudo We have five prayer services on Yom Kippur

They are all quite long, though, so they really run right from one into another all day long

from a quick glance through wikipedia, the timings are distinctly different from the Muslim prayers.

@goldPseudo That could be

two of the five daily prayers take place after sunset.

@goldPseudo well one of the YK prayers is after sunset

actually 2 are after sunset

but not in the same way

oh, right. brain fart.

wasn't thinking in "day begins at sunset" mode.

right

Come to think of it, I don't think that what I heard is true, though.

Muslim prayers are: immediately after sunset, late night, immediately before sunrise, mid-day and immediately before sunset.

I don't remember who told me, but I think the point was that Muslims take our most stringent things that we do sometimes and do them all the time

like praying 5 times

or women covering their hair all the time, not just after marriage

But that's not really how everything is

So I think whoever it was was probably just making it up

@goldPseudo On Yom Kippur, the prayers are after darkness, morning time, any time between the morning prayer and the afternoon prayer, then any time between the previous prayer and sunset, then between sunset and darkness

there are definitely parallels. and there's often dispute as to what is mandatory vs what is highly recommended.

even the praying five times thing isn't universally agreed upon.

Shi'ites still consider it to be five prayers, but only at three times. Rather than five prayers at five distinct times agreed upon by Sunnis.

@goldPseudo Interesting. Jews often say the afternoon prayer at the latest possible time and the evening prayer at the earliest possible time so they can do them in one trip to the synagogue

i've done similar myself, just so i can get two of my prayers done during the same lunch break.

(don't need to go to the synagogue though :p)

delaying the prayer too much is discouraged though, if only because it increases the chance of actually missing the time.

or rushing through the prayer to get it done in time.

@goldPseudo Right. When synagogues do that, they are careful to announce the time so people show up on time

And if they don't get enough people to pray as a group on time, then they pray individually

@Daniel In general, Islamic law is far more lenient than (what I know of) Judaic law. The laws of dhabihah and halal food, for example, are much simpler than the laws of kashrut.

@goldPseudo Right, that's why I think whoever it was was making it up

Or maybe I didn't understand it properly

because I think it might have been when I was a child

wouldn't surprise me either way. there's a lot of "Islam just took its ideas from Judaism" rhetoric flying around.

@Daniel Yom Kippur prayer if not long. No prayer is long. Just people added to the prayer services which make it long. Those who follow RaMbaMs nosah are those who are praying the real accurate prayer services because nothing is added to it. And it is the shortest nosah compare to everyone else. When ppl are praying on Yom Kippur shahHarith we are already done with shahHarith n musof n are on the way home to rest or learn. Just as rambam said that one should be learning on Yom Kippur

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob How do you know Rambam's Nusach?

Look at the back of Sefer ahavo for the nosah on all brochoth

also the siddur of Mori Gafih even though keeps a few modern things, if you remive those and keep the rambam nosah you will see it is shorter

teimonim who followed rambam had the change in their siddurin only recently

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Yes, that is true

But AFAIK it still served its purpose as the Temple

Right. I was just adding that the temple was a little out of touch when compared to the first temple

@Daniel Ibn Umar reported: When the Muslims came to Medina, they gathered and sought to know the time of prayer but no one summoned them. One day they discussed the matter, and some of them said: Use something like the bell of the Christians and some of them said: Use horn like that of the Jews. Umar said: Why may not a be appointed who should call (people) to prayer? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: O Bilal, get up and summon (the people) to prayer.

@Daniel Thabit narrated it from Anas: Among the Jews, when a woman menstruated, they did not dine with her, nor did they live with them in their houses; so the Companions of the Apostle (may peace be upon him) asked The Apostle (may peace be upon him), and Allah, the Exalted revealed:"

And they ask you about menstruation; say it is a pollution, so keep away from woman during menstruation" to the end (Qur'an, ii. 222). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do everything except intercourse.

The Jews heard of that and said: This man does not want to leave anything we do without opposing us in it. Usaid b. Hudair and Abbad b. Bishr came and said: Messenger of Allah, the Jews say such and such thing.

We should not have, therefore, any contactwith them (as the Jews do). The face of the Messenger of Allah (way peace be upon him) underwent such a change that we thought he was angry with them, but when they went out, they happened to receive a gift of milk which was sent to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him). He (the Holy Prophet) called for them and gave them drink, whereby they knew that he was not angry with them.

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob why did you send that?

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob ok... ?

i read on a diff site quoting that same hadith but the word opposing was changed to making lenient

or maybe it was dif hadith which had jews saying mohammed was making jewish law lenient

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob so what?

I am confused

so you asked if islam law is lenient compard to jewish law

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I did? when?

You replied to my comment about the Temple

and the conversation which follows after that

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I said that the guy who told me that was arguing that Islam takes the stringent Jewish things that we do rarely and does them all the time

But I know that's not true

@Daniel why is praying 5 times a day stringent in judaism?

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Because we do it only on Yom Kippur

why is covering the hair even before marriage stringent in judaism? this is law which yidden dont follow

I don't mean it's a chumra

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob According to you, and pretty much nobody else

look in rambam he says 3year olds should cover up

not according to me according to the rambam and the gamoro

that is why we yidden are following wrong holocho

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I'm not arguing this again.

well then you will have a skewed viewing of things since you dont have proper judaism

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob First you should convince the living poskim. If you convince them, then I'll follow

cant convince those who dont want to be convniced. also they wont even listen to me. i need to make an appointment 20years before hand in order just to see a living posek for 2mins

But if all the gedolei hador are telling me to do one thing and Mr. Doweed yaagob on the internet is telling me something else, I'm going with the rabbonim

it is not me

open the RaMbaM for yourself

i am nobody

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob You think Rav Elyashiv has never opened a Rambam?

he doesnt pasken like the rambam

no one does anymore, just a few

famous quote throughout history, "we dont pasken like rambam"

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Exactly. Only you do. So since I'm taking my psak from the rabbonim who are alive, and since they don't pasken like Rambam, I don't either

but when they need him for their own person devious ways they quote him all the time

which is a big problem. for they are only following their "judaism" out of tradition not learning properly.

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Tell me, when you have a question, who do you ask?

they wont see a problem in their judaism because they are looking at their wrong rabbonim for gidance

Say you don't understand something perfectly

i look in the rambam

You don't understand the rambam

if i have a problem i look at what mori gafih said

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Who is your personal rav? Who can give you guidance based on your unique situation?

sometimes i dont agree with what he says and look at other teimoni rabbonim

rambam

:)

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob No. You never met Rambam. He can't guide you specifically

i met his book

his words are him. through his words i have met him

Rambam never knew about electricity. How do you know whether you can use electricity on Shabbos?

you can

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob It doesn't matter if you've met him. It matters if he's met you

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob How do you know?

good

because it is not breaking any law

your are not building or are you turning on a fire

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob According to you. But who made you a posek?

it is even according to modenr day rabbonim

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob but you don't hold by them

so you can't use them

i dont

but even some hold taht you cant turn it on because of only minhag and nothing else

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob You need a posek

rambam is a posek

i dont need poskim now

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Everyone needs a posek

You can't just go interpreting things yourself

i dont

i look in the rambam

What makes you any better than the hundreds of extremely learned rabbonim

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob and Rambam never said anything about electricity

we learn from his words

if it is allowed or not

as he himself said

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob A posek can do that

you can't

so can anyone else

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob You have no idea whether Rambam would approve of the life you are living today. You're just hoping that you make the right interpretation. You use your logic to come to conclusions that could certainly be what he would have said. But how can you know?

by logic

...

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Is your logic better than everyone else's logic?

he siad if you have a problem with what he said. look in the rif. and the gamoro. and learn from it and see what you come up with

yes my logic is better because it is only according to rambam and not others

r auerbach said its ok to turn on except incandescent bulbs

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob ok. I'll leave it with that.

but he said you shouldnt because of minhag

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I know. But you can't hold by his opinion

that isnt a good enough answer

i can come up with my own conclusion which is same as his

you can do it

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that the Rambam couldn't have anticipated electricity

it has nothing to do with rambam anticipating electricity...

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob And many many opinions that are different

i cna prove their opinions wrong

ok, I'm not going to argue this anymore. This was only a tangentially related point to something that originally had to do with Islam

it is common sense

everyone agree it is either fire or building

and then argue if it is fire or building

i say none

done deal. what is the problem?

just because your posek said it is building doesnt mean you should follow him on it. also people who do agree it is not building say it is too late to change it for we are ot as great at the posek beofre us to change it

mamash shtuth

this discussion, is not on topic anymore

thats the problem with modern day judaism. no room for students to argue. if rov said it then its 100% truth no lies as if he is a superhero and is infallible

if you guys wish you may continue it in Judaism Chatroom

@AlUmmatمجاهد sorry you can move it to islam judaism if you want

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