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05:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

5:07 AM
Wow, @AviD. I just started looking at the SO answers. They're definitely missing the point. You expect your length variable to be, well, variable whereas your "max size" will likely be static.
At least, that's my understanding of the situation. Please keep in mind that I consider myself to be roughly 8/10 systems, 2/10 coder. Though I'm willing to adjust that to 9/1 :)
 
 
3 hours later…
8:15 AM
Hey guys - everything happens when I'm out eh?
I'm a DMZ or Crypt - I think DMZ is winning...
@AviD tallywag?
 
 
1 hour later…
9:22 AM
Morning
 
@wicky morning Marc
How you doing? Did ya find a geeks floor to crash on or did you make it home
 
I got as far as Kings Cross station and then buses were replacing trains so I got a curry and then stayed in the Premier Inn next to the station
got back this morning
I had a really good time last night. Hopefully I didn't do anything to embarrass myself
 
....
not that I remember :-)
 
Phew!
It's a really good community - and a really small one as well. Met a bunch of good people yesterday and had some really good chats.
 
9:58 AM
@wicky And you look nothing like your avatarocado
 
@RoryAlsop LOL, I look a little closer to it this morning
Maybe one too many sherbets last night
 
I had to come into the client with a white hat today... got some looks
 
lol
i've ended up wfh today
my black hat is here next to me
most of the pics on my phone are blurry but there's a couple i might upload somewhere
 
@wicky I only have blurry ones of you, so not going to pop them up. (clever move on your part :-)
@tobys - dunno if you have seen this one:
7
Q: Are signature based antivirus or antimalware effective?

SimAre signature based antivirus or antimalware solutions effective? Has the battle been lost against the ever increasing amount of malware, particularly rootkits, that are in the wild?

 
10:34 AM
@AviD Agreed, I think in that field he does have a lot of experience, however that is one area in a very wide space, so that does not make him an expert in all areas of security. So when individuals get ranty and resort to personal attacks I think we should just follow @Jeff's guidance and delete insults, leave valid input, and warn then ban if things get worse.
@AviD - I also slightly sanitised one of your comments that could be perceived as inflammatory just to try and keep the peace a little. You'll be able to see which bit in history.
 
10:49 AM
@RoryAlsop yea quite a lot already said. may get an answer out later
On the conflict between @ThomasPornin & @Rook, it's really not useful to resort to somebody's background as an argument over the validity of their point.
 
Hey @RoryAlsop, great to know that you are not a bot :-)
 
Good morrow, gentlemen
@Rorys
@RoryAlsop aww shucks, his comments made me larf :D
 
I take it you met at b-sides...
 
@GrahamLee LOL - nahh, just a scruffy get who likes security
 
Hey @AviD
 
10:57 AM
@AviD :-) Had to remove one of his comments entirely
 
oo @GrahamLee is here too??
does this mean the singularity is here??
 
@RoryAlsop yup, there were 200 such scruffy gets knocking around....
 
@GrahamLee did you stay at #4420 for long?
 
@RoryAlsop yeah, i saw....
btw you cant see history of comments...
 
10:59 AM
seriously though, at some point the comments are not insulting anymore... I just find them funny...
 
was amused by mu-b's talk. He did the breaking full disk encryption talk at CrestCon
@AviD yeah. I agree.
and at #dc4420 last night did a 'how to steal satellite card info from illegal card sharing rings
 
@RoryAlsop though the comments on the SO question were just... frustrating.
 
was....interesting!
@AviD I didn't get to that one before the deletions, so missed that. Anti MS rhetoric these days is daft though, considering they actually do a lot of it better than everyone else
their sdlc model really works
 
@RoryAlsop i know, right?
 
I used to bash on them in the old days, when they were crap. Now, they have turned it around
 
11:01 AM
but heaven forfend I suggest something they did was right... and ask what to do in linux
 
even I, an age old unix diehard, like what MS are doing in security
 
guess I'll just delete the SO question... there is really nothing useful there, AT ALL
 
@RoryAlsop in fact I didn't go to DC4420 at all
 
pinged a couple of links up on twitter - for your memcpy chat, and for the disk encryption one frank bumped to the top of the active list. @Graham and I have a lot of new followers from yesterday, so we might get a bump in traffice
@GrahamLee oh, (shows how much I must have had to drink...) thought I saw you there
 
I think my mistake was tagging it [linux] and [c]
 
11:03 AM
hehe
Ooh, they've fixed the "Big Red 2 of Death"!
 
@GrahamLee Steve Lord's talk was good
 
@GrahamLee BR2oD?
 
@GrahamLee yes - it just started working after a few hours
dunno what they fixed
 
is that like from Diablo 3 or something?
 
8
Q: Mod messages indicator doesn't reflect mod messages

Rory AlsopIn chat I have a red 2 on my avatar signifying 2 messages flagged for moderator, but when I go to my mod tag there is nothing there. Thinking a notifier has just got stuck, as I don't have the 2 in my top bar.

 
11:04 AM
@AviD yesterday both @RoryAlsop and I were told there were two mod requests in chat
but there weren't
^^^^ that
 
@RoryAlsop ahh
 
So - it looks like the DMZ is winning as a name. Seem reasonable I set the deadline for midnight tonight (UTC)?
 
BTW, I agree on the MS thing. I often cite them in talks to iPhone developers.
 
@GrahamLee they turned it around
 
@RoryAlsop ya know, its just the name of the chatroom. @ScottPack can change it every other day, if he so pleases....
 
11:06 AM
Of course, most micro-ISVs can't afford to stop working for a month, so I make the point they should get this right from the start.
 
@AviD I know :-)
 
There is a room that changes its name more often than that...
 
It doesn't bother me at all, but y'know...
 
Or, if not "right", then "sufficiently not wrong" anyway.
 
oo, so long as we have aaaallll the moderators in a room at the same time - are there not moderator-like issues to discuss real quick-like?
@GrahamLee agree.
MS also really makes it easy (or at least, helps make it not so hard)
 
11:09 AM
re mod issues...the only real one is that with growth come greater odds of argument/trolling etc
I think meta.so has discussed all the likely issues a million times, and @Jeff has good guidance
 
heh
I think i might be a little more sympathetic to the occasional snarky comment, since I have those tendencies too...
as long as it doesnt get down to vicious personal attacks (unless they're really funny)
 
@AviD I was snarky on another se site the other day, so went back and apologised and sorted my post
@AviD LOL
 
@RoryAlsop the skeptics one?
 
could have been...
 
they kinda encourage the snarkiness there...
 
11:12 AM
they seemed pleasantly surprised I apologised
basically I told the q he was a help vampire
:-)
 
heh - once a troll, always a troll, no?
@RoryAlsop oh excellent
(btw speaking of, was my memcpy question at all argumentative or rhetoric?)
 
As @RoryAlsop said, the increased trolling is a side-effect of the site growing, and I don't think it's really become problematic
 
@AviD no - only if you object to the term 'unsafe'
 
@RoryAlsop lol.
apparently, "unsafe" is taboo with regard to anything linux. And its only unsafe in C if you dont know what you're doing.
(okay, now that was snarky :D. but the comments there really were quite out there...)
 
@AviD well, everything is unsafe if you don't know what you are doing:-)
 
11:16 AM
@AviD I see the same in the Mac world. Because Apple say it's secure, anyone who says anything else is just a FUDmonkey.
 
@GrahamLee well thats true - for apple values of "secure"
 
@AviD Troll :-)
 
see? tolja I have those tendencies... ;)
so, another diamond-related topic... what's our stance on "list of books/conferences/vulnerabilities/applications" etc?
assuming that the question has something decent to offer - make it c.wiki?
 
yeah, I reckon
there have been some good answers on those sorts of q's
offtopic aside - theregister.co.uk/2011/04/21/goldfish_racing - I like the final line: The goldfish derby is no more, but the bar is now punting "$5 for 2 Fish Tacos every Tuesday!!"
 
i agree. but I'm still bothered by "give me a list of X"... I think CW is good solution for that.
 
11:21 AM
(sorry)
@AviD Yep - CW is the way forwards, and if the topic goes out of date in future we can close along with an edit to the Q to say it is now out of date
 
ok, what about "recommendation for product to do X"?
 
there was a meta.so thing on it
recommendations I don't like as much
 
it feels a bit limited in time, but on the other hand HERE it also makes sense...
 
opinion
better q is if we can get them to rewrite along the lines of - I need to do x, y and z. Which solution does x y and z
 
okay, lemme rephrase that: "What products can do X?"
 
11:23 AM
FTFY
:-)
 
FTFF!
 
FTFF?
 
Fix The Fucking Finder?
</macgeek>
 
F* the F*ing F*ers!
vintage carlin...
 
hahahahahaha
so mine was the only non-obscene one
Fixed That For Ya
 
11:25 AM
ahhh
 
Jeez!
:-)
 
lol
ayeah, gots me a list of thems type of q's...
I'll go wiki them later
 
right - time for some lunch, the sun is shining - seeya in a bit
 
so yeah, I think that product recs are too limited in time (and subjective, usually) to be good answers
 
@RoryAlsop loll!!
 
11:26 AM
Time for me to make a sandwich and then answer @AviD's memcpy question
 
@GrahamLee oo yay!
@GrahamLee there are a lot of those...
even the toolbox type questions.
 
@AviD I know, look at this answer for instance:
 
even your DNS-tunnelling question provoked a few answers like that.
 
0
A: Do you detect/react to DNS tunnelling?

Bill FrankPalo Alto Networks next generation firewall is used regularly to limit the use of a port to a specific application. DNS is one of the 1,200+ applications Palo Alto Networks recognizes. So if you implement a policy to limit port 53 UDP to DNS, anything else is supposed to be blocked. Clearly the o...

 
to be fair, i think it's valid as an answer
 
11:29 AM
Sorry, what did you say the name of the company was? :D
 
heh, was just writing about that one :D
it might not be a great answer, but its there nonetheless....
 
Well, waddya know? A layer 7 firewall can be used to block DNS tunneling. Now THAT is a novel approach!
 
@ScottPack @packs!
gmorning smileybear
 
G'morning Nigels and Gents
 
@Scott afternoon (haven't gone for sandwich yet :-)
 
11:35 AM
I just finished up my breakfast.
And off again!
 
@GrahamLee interestingly, the front page of cymbel.com has a PAN video
Bill works for Cymbel - sounds a bit like product pushing/spam
will mod off and leave a comment
 
@RoryAlsop yup, looks like they're "premier partners" with PAN
 
@RoryAlsop didnt think so... might be a bit pushing it, but thats not terrible, as long as its apropo
 
I left polite comment asking for affiliation to be overt :-)
 
@RoryAlsop yes, thats fair.
its also not like this is his only answer, or all his answers are like this... he has some other good posts.
in other news, have I mentioned that I'm really not much of a fan of Fortify?
 
11:46 AM
Unrelated, on this iPhone location tracking shitstorm: alexlevinson.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/…
 
@GrahamLee FUDmonkey
2
 
+1 Avid
 
12:02 PM
@RoryAlsop had my first fish taco in Seattle a couple of weeks back. Related: had my last fish taco in Seattle a couple of weeks back.
 
@GrahamLee +1
 
doesnt really help me find a recc' for my client, but still :)
 
What do you guy's think of a hypervisor based memory integrity provider?
 
thats the type of answer I was hoping for - and when my client moves to osx i'll have a solution ready
 
12:06 PM
updated
@AviD CF-Lite works on *nix and Windows too.
 
@GrahamLee oooo
 
will add that as a comment to the answer.
 
fanF*tastic!!
is it performant?
and are there any compatibility issues?
 
you can bet the performance is good, as this is basically what Apple have based their higher-level APIs on (and used to write Safari/iTunes for Windows)
Compatibility issues? With what? :)
 
@GrahamLee well, dunno...
dont wanna be causing new problems...
diffrnt distros, other libs, etc...
 
12:14 PM
if you use its networking API then you have to use its run loop instead of low-level select(), but of course you don't need to do that.
 
select() is for pussies.
 
@GrahamLee I will definitely be looking into that. Thanks so much!
 
The data type objects are all self-contained, so I can't imagine any compatibility issues.
 
@ScottPack FUDmonkey
 
@AviD Fanboi
 
12:15 PM
@ScottPack I didn't realise kittens had file descriptors.
 
@GrahamLee ah wait, requires using their data types...?
@ScottPack heh
@GrahamLee thought it was similar to the XXX_s funcs...
nm, i'll go look into it more.
 
Eggselent...I think I may have received the performance metrics for DNS tunneling. I had to send my minions out to check their document stores
 
@AviD "... which provides C types for safe manipulation..."
 
lunchtime!
@GrahamLee ah right... :$
so a port would be more work here, than just replacing a few function calls... oh well, at least I have alternatives now!
 
@AviD to quote the movie, "it's the only way to be sure". The issue with C strings and unbounded byte arrays is not that they aren't normally used safely, but that they are really crappy data types.
 
12:22 PM
@GrahamLee well thats a given...
@GrahamLee what movie?
 
@AviD Alien. "I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
*Aliens.
 
ahh right
 
That's why I use dban as my compiler.
 
12:41 PM
@AviD I might leave you to moderate this comment flag:
 
@GrahamLee :-)
 
@GrahamLee I considered flagging that one, but it was late when I read it, and I didn't want to risk just being cranky.
 
@ScottPack ah yeah... my snarkiness got the better of me. was just so annoyed at that whole thing...
@ScottPack wait, why were you gonna flag it?
 
@AviD I was principally joking about the flag thing, but yeah, it showed :)
 
@ScottPack really, was the q at all argumentative?
 
12:52 PM
I didn't think so
 
(all the yelling has got me a little self-conscious...)
Scott Adams: "I have to confess that giving verbal wedgies to people who desperately deserve them, in ‎a public forum, is a lot more fun than you imagine. "
 
@AviD In my opinion that's a pretty good indication that you're not completely self-absorbed.
@AviD I would make a joke regarding US Politics and things not intended to be factual statements, but I feel as though I have the wrong crowd for that.
 
go for it
 
@ScottPack hehe
@ScottPack au contraire - self-introspection is a big habit of mine.
just because i'm so interesting to be with
cuz I'm godly ;)
(cue the jokes regarding charlie sheen....)
 
@AviD we can already tell you have tigger blood from your avatar
 
1:03 PM
@GrahamLee I actually injected the joke into the lead up. Any further attempts would be rather more embarrassing.
 
aaaah yeeaaah
 
1:22 PM
@RoryAlsop I feel like a tool retweeting that Terminator post. My followers are, except for 1, a proper subset of yours :)
 
1:48 PM
Hi i want to be able to vote on the new name of the forum but I don't really know what to do? do i just leave my vote a a message or is there something i have to do?
 
@WZeberaFFS We've ended up being significantly less formal than I believe the banner indicates :)
What's your vote?
 
@s
@ScottPack I want "DMZ"
 
Eggselent
 
Btw is there any irc interface to this chat or only the web interface?
 
Not that I know of, in the early days of chat existing some folks were working on one, me thinks. I don't know if it went anywhere.
 
1:53 PM
@WZeberaFFS only the web interface
 
At first I wanted an irc interface so that I could centralize my chat rooms. After using the web interface for a while I've come to think that I like it better :)
 
btw, in case anyone here is interested but hasn't seen yet:
 
I think Rory's twatter link was better.
 
@AviD Ok
 
@ScottPack well eggsskyuuuse me for not being on twatnerrer
 
1:55 PM
@AviD by the way i asked about that proposal like 10 min ago meta.security.stackexchange.com/questions/247/…
 
@WZeberaFFS ha!
actually been sitting in my tray for a few days, to remind me to post it here next time i pop in...
 
I am actually wondering if it should be rolled in.
 
@ScottPack back in the first days, there was a discussion of which other site suggestions to roll into this one, methinks I brought that one up too...
and also crypto, which was decided to leave on its own.
@ScottPack I think the problem is that our site is perceived as being overly technical
which it shouldnt be
 
Quite.
 
@AviD overly technical with regards to social engineering, but underly technical when it comes to cryptography ?
 
2:00 PM
Crypto is the black arts and should be kept in it's own little corner. I think we can all agree on that.
 
Anyone else think this one should be filed under "subjective/argumentative" or "not a real question"?
0
Q: Thoughts on Tiny Encryption Algorithm (TEA, anyone)?

Frank DI'm planning to implement Tiny Encryption Algorithm and exchange data between two PHP sites. Specifically, using the code presented at PHP-einfach.de (downloadable from here). Does anyone have any experiences / thoughts / comments on using this algorithm? (other than why are you using it)

 
@Iszi Agreed
 
@ThomasPornin ayup...
heya @Iszi
@Iszi I dont see it as argumentative, and only borderline subjective. Could probably stand for an edit or three, but its not a bad question.
 
Morning Sunshine
 
@Iszi The question is subjective, but there are objective answers (e.g. mine)
 
2:03 PM
@ThomasPornin I see the crypto site as relating to this one (the crypt parts of it), as cs-theory relates to SO.
not necessarily more or less technical, but rather focused on the innards and the whyfors, rather than the "how do I use this" or "which should I be using"
 
@AviD But if you read about how he is going to use it the the question is of-topic / pointing in the wrong direction
 
@WZeberaFFS not off topic, just based on wrong assumptions. and thats what we (okay lets be honest, @ThomasPornin) is here for
though his mistake is not just cryptographical...
well gents, gots to go - kiddies are wanting some dinner...
cheers
 
2:19 PM
Enjoy!
 
@ThomasPornin Were it not flatly broken though, there practically wouldn't be. Thanks for that answer, by the way.
Do we really want a question here, that's just looking for a referral to another forum?
2
Q: Where can I find some "real time" discussion forums for security issues?

Dillie-OThe place where I work was hit by the new Qakbot variant (3rd generation) a couple of days ago and it has been brutal. Unfortunately a lot of the documentation out there is from the 1st iteration of this virus. We've looked at a lot of the big antivirus sites (Symantec, McAffee, etc.) but unfort...

 
@Iszi I dont believe that twitter is a viable replacement for security.stackexchange.com :P
And @AviD did point him here.
 
@WZeberaFFS Who said that?
@WZeberaFFS Yeah, I liked that response. Still, do you walk into a Ford dealership asking for the nearest Chevy?
 
@Iszi "I have been doing some searches via Twitter as well, with limited results."
 
my train will be arriving soon; I must leave.
so long, folks.
so long, folks
 
2:26 PM
@WZeberaFFS Oh, missed that.
@ThomasPornin l8rz
@ThomasPornin l8rz
 
@Iszi I agree that it is rued to ask but this is a more question based site and not really discussion based
 
Have a lovely day @ThomasPornin!
 
@WZeberaFFS Okay, so... How about Ford/Yamaha?
 
@Iszi No for example I posted security.stackexchange.com/questions/3054/… a while ago and it got closed because i was asking a to broad question.
"It's impossible to objectively answer this question"
This is not a forum in that way its a educated Q & A site
 
2:47 PM
@WZeberaFFS That one should have actually been closed as "off-topic". "Help me hack XYZ system" is not within the scope of this site per the FAQ.
 
@Iszi I to believe that it should be closed but do you understand my point on the difference of Q&A and discussion forum?
 
@WZeberaFFS Yes, but I'm not quite sure coming to a Q&A site and saying "I'm not getting my question answered quickly enough here, where else can I go." is really on topic.
Does anyone else find it annoying that there's not a "reply" link available in chat transcripts, yet you can still use the :###### to reply to those messages?
 
@Iszi He didn't refer to this site but to the internet "Unfortunately a lot of the documentation out there". However what I'm interested in is what he replies to my comment asking what's wrong whit this site.
 
3:04 PM
8 icons in the room! But one is "feed"....
 
@nealmcb I see 8, but not "Feed". Did I miss something?
This one is bordering on subjective/argumentative, to be honest. There's been papers/articles written/posted on both sides of the issue. One side saying keeping them complex and fresh makes them harder to break, and the other side saying keeping them simple and stale makes them less likely to be exploited by user-implemented workarounds.
0
Q: Recommended password policy

WZeberaFFSIs there any research on how how a password policy can increase / decrease the quality of passwords. At first you might think that this is a obvious question but taking the user presuming that it isn't a security professional but your average facbook spammer. If you don't have any requirements o...

 
@Iszi So you are saying yes but....
 
there's a very interesting presentation by Matt Weir talking about how all the password policy (at least one special, two numbers, etc) is actually lowering the password entropy
 
@Marcin Do you have a link to that?
 
reusablesec.blogspot.com last two blogs are pretty much directly about it
2
anyone who whips out entropy calculators when talking about password policies is my hero ;)
 
3:17 PM
Howdy @Marcin
 
@Marcin Thanks :)
It felt kind of worrisome when safari crashed after opening the site :P
 
sorry, i feel no pity for Mac users ;)
 
Haha, eve i dont :P
 
in general, that Matt Weir guy is friggin' brilliant, I've annoyed a lot of smart people with his research
 
It is a well known name
 
3:27 PM
@RoryAlsop cheers for the re-tweet
 
speaking of hashes, does anyone really understand attacks on concatenated hashes? This is the best I've found so far, but I could use more sam280.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/on-concatenating-hashes sam280.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/…
 
oh, he's gone!
:-)
me too, happy easter all
 
@AviD I think you mixed a loaded opinion in with your technical question, to the point where a bunch of folks missed your actual question. I thought it was clear enough, but see why it triggered folks.
@Iszi The right-most of the 10 (!) icons on the chat page for me is the traditional rss feed icon.
 
@nealmcb I see only 9 on one line here, and usually a crowded room will have icons wrap to another line.
 
this site has been great, but a little slow, a lot of security questions still go to SO/SF. is there a way to tell the mods to move that stuff over to our little site?
 
3:33 PM
@Iszi mine is 10-across
 
@nealmcb Mine looks like it could be 10-across, but there's only 9 there right now.
@Marcin Our mods do, when they catch them.
 
Who are the mods? Do we get to vote like on other sites?
 
@Marcin Right now, we just have the Pro-Tem mods which were chosen (I think) by SEI during the Beta site creation. We'll get voting when the site goes Gold.
 
What I usually do is flag it with a message, such as
 
@ScottPack Exactly
 
3:40 PM
security.SE isn't a close migration option on any of the sites, so a site mod has to do it.
 
ah nice, i didnt know if they'd take offense to it
 
Probably not, but of course it's up to the mod to decide whether or not to move it.
I don't think I've had any of mine rejected
 
@ScottPack ...and to decide how to vote on your flag.
 
@Iszi Right
 
@ScottPack Where do you want to move my question?
 
3:46 PM
That's true, they could decide it was a valid flag, but not to move it.
 
SE has a A LOT of questions about crypto and protocol analysis, password storage, etc, that would definitely get this site moving if we just started moving them 'en masse'
 
@Marcin cant seem to figure out what site is SE?
 
i meant SO
 
@Marcin did you mena stackoverflow?
 
Crypto does have it's own site, me thinks.
Sometimes it's fuzzy to figure out where to draw the line.
 
3:51 PM
they do, but they're very theoretical about it, they make my head spin
 
There's a lot of questions on SF tagged , but that doesn't necessarily mean they should move over either.
 
@WZeberaFFS SE is StackExchange - Generally refers to the entire network of sites. In that respect, I think @Marcin's comment (as originally written) is still valid. SO isn't the only site that gets Security-related questions that would be move-worthy. SF and SU get them too.
 
oh yea, a lot of this stuff is fuzzy, i've used stats, math, so, sf sites for research on hashing/passwords/policy
 
@Marcin Thanks - interesting password entropy stuff - I'll read the paper later
@RoryAlsop: I agree with your comment on the social engineering area51 proposal. But see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_(political_science)
 
4:36 PM
@ThomasPornin Looks like some previous work on a preimage attack on the old mysql hash: springerlink.com/content/c181731216163064 I haven't spent the money on the paper yet, but an example is given in their presentation: icisc.org/presentations/7-2.pdf But the collision they cite doesn't work for me MySQL123 = 1b03947a6f1ae59b but RGp0mA23 = 1b03947a77350d71
 
hello again - now sat at airport waiting for flight home for the long weekend!
@nealmcb yeah - interesting. I really hadn't heard of that meaning
It's good to see new faces coming through here - definitely getting busier
(@Graham and I were very busy spreading the good word at BSidesLondon:-)
 
@RoryAlsop So that's what you're calling it nowdays
 
heh - what else would you call mingling, overdosing on caffeine and drinking with a bunch of hackers?
 
4:52 PM
Sunday?
 
very good. I like what you did there.
 
I aim to pleasure.
Speaking of which, lunch time's over. Probably time to go back to the office.
Man, it's starting to look nice outside and I have gin upstairs.
/me sighs
I mean, summer's coming up, and with it the mosquitoes. Anti-malarial and all that.
 
i hear ya - i have free drink in the airport loung, but my car parked at the other end :-(
but at least I have gin at home - we don't have mosquitos, but we have the much-more-vicious midge!!!
 
Never trust anything named Midge. That's my motto.
 
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