To the best of my knowledge no such study has been done within Chabad chassidim... and even though in general we say 'Ein lo ra-inu ra-aya' (Zevachim 12:4, "'We have not seen' is not a proof"), controversial studies/statistics the likes of this would surely have spread very quickly with very loud...
@DoubleAA my original answer certainly answer the question. Did you read the title? "What percentage of Chabad still believes the Rebbe is the Messiah?" - no mention of statistics there.
In any case, I clearly explained myself that statistics are irrelevant when history has suggested a clear answer to the question
Lots of things can answer out-of-contex parts of questions. (Also, before you judge, you should know that there were 10 other comments and another answer whose contents you might not have appreciated.)
I also deleted the tag 'heterodox' which I believe is unfair and opinionated and bordering offensive- as Chabad is universally accepted as being Orthadox, as well as being in the forefront of spreading Judism and Jewish values throughout the world. --
Furthermore, see this letter from Rabbi Aharon soloveichik [hezbos.blogspot.co.il/2012/09/…](http://hezbos.blogspot.co.il/2012/09/rabbi-aharon-soloveichiks-verdict-of.html)
@YaakovPinsky This is not the place for that discussion. You may ask another question and have it there. This question is for statistics. I did not act on my decision for over an hour while waiting for the approval of others in chat. I received two oks before deleting and one after deleting (see chat transcript). I assure you I have no interest in defining what is true regarding Chabad on this site. I do hope you continue to use the site as you seem to have interesting points to make.
@Danield [deleted comment from Yaakov Pinsky regarding the tag]: With all due respect to Rabbi Soloveichik (and as a talmid of his talmid, Rabbi Lichtenstein) I do not think you are correct in saying that "Chabbad are universally accepted as being Orthodox". To bring two examples, Rav Shach Za"l, the predecessor of Rav Elyashiv as Head of the Ashkenazi Chareidi community in Israel, regarded Chabbad as "the cult closest to Judaism". Big Rabbi's such as MO"R Rav Amital za"l would (cont)
(cont) not eat chabbad shechita. One may not overlook chabbad's problems (which range far and beyond the Messianic trend) just because you say they are the "forefront of spreading Judaism"
@DoubleAA So basically you are taking the liberty to consider yourself a judge between Rabbi Soloveichik and many other Torah Giants like Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and many others vs R. Shach -- siding R Shach. This sounds very bad on your part
@Danield He is not paskining in that comment of his. I and msh210 also put the tag on the question, which discusses a heterodox view and non-normative-Chabad one. It is not a psak regarding the 'legitimacy' or whatever of Chabad. You can see more discussion about what the tag should be used for going on now in Stack Exchange Api V2 Chat. (FTR I completely agree that "being in the forefront of spreading Judism and Jewish values throughout the world" is completely irrelevant here.)
@DoubleAA How do you know that this issue "discusses a heterodox view and non-normative-Chabad one." What do you know about Chabad? I am a Chabad chassid and I can tell you that your staement is a big wopper! As I stated in my origial answer: history has spoken. The Lubavither Rebbe is still universally accepted within Chabad as Rebbe, Nesi Doreinu and Moshiach She-b'doreinu
I would also like to remind you of the story with R. Chaim Volozin - who chose not no sign on the Vilna Gaon's cherem of chassidim: When asked: How come he's not signing - the Vilna Gaon is like an angel of Hashem ... to which he answered that he learnt this from Avraham Avinu: To withhold from sacrificing Yitchak - an angel is enough, but to sacrifice him - only G-d Himself can command such a thing. Think about it.
@Danield I know you are mistaken in multiple ways. You can contribute to the discussion about how the tag should be precisely defined (a feature it currently lacks) in Stack Exchange Api V2 Chat.
@Danield You are mistaken if you think he is Mashiach. I know Beyedia' Sheleima that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson Zichorono Livracha was not and is not Mashiach. But I'm not really expecting to convince you of that.
@Danield The tag has been deleted in anticipation of its redefinition.
Is there a source in Judaism that indicates that Moshiach (Ben David, not Ben Yosef) will die before having fulfilled his role and then return to posthumously achieve it?
@HodofHod There's a potential mashiach in every generation [citation needed], but he's not actuallymashiach unless he's the guy (let's go with the Rambam's description) who beats enemies, builds the third bayis, etc. So, yeah, the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe, zatzal, was not mashiach.
@HodofHod Yeah. It is curious to me that the messianic Lubavitchers seem to ignore the Rambam's description, when Chabad-Lubavitch tends generally to study/esteem the Rambam more than most Jews do.
@Danield I think that the claim that the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe is mashiach is a heterodox one (even if we don't wind up defining our heterodox tag that way). Wiktionary has "Of or pertaining to creeds, beliefs, or teachings, especially religious ones, that are different from the norm ('orthodox'), but not sufficiently different to be called heretical", which I think is a good description of the claim that he is mashiach.
@HodofHod Because he will yet fulfill all the criteria listed by the Rambam?
@HodofHod Fair enough. I've got a messianic-Chabad aunt and uncle. (At least, I'm pretty sure they're messianic.) I'm sure they'd love to discuss it with me :-)
@everyone, notice that I never said that the Rebbe is already Moshiach, but rather still B'Chezkat Moshiach/ Moshiach She-ba-dor. Only when Moshiach builds the Beit Hamikdash and gathers all the Jews is he Moshiach B'Vadai. This belief does not contradict the Rambam at all. The fact that you guys didn't understand that only amplifies my hunch until now that you don't know much about Moshiach nor did you learn the Rambam in depth.
@msh210 I already provided a link to Rabbi Soloveichik's letter. What more do you want? Do you claim to know better than him? Even if you can bring other great Torah sages who placed this belief outside mainstream orthodoxy - do you feel that you can judge between them?
Furthermore, Our sages have said 'Kol haposel - bemumO ko posel'
@Danield All right. I didn't have high hopes of being mashiach anyway.
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@Danield Quote from the Rambam: נהרג – בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה. But you're right that I didn't learn it in depth. (Plus, maybe that refers only to someone who died at human hands, as it literally says.)
@Danield notice that I never said that Meshichistim are outside the pale of orthodoxy, but rather still just being silly. The fact that you didn't understand that only amplifies my hunch until now that you don't know much about considering the other side nor did you read my words in depth.
You have now presented a silly argument. Before dealing with its content, I will deal with its form. Paskining between gedolim is done _all the time_ in Judaism, so first off, yes people can paskin. Second, even if we are unable to paskin (that sounds like kefira just to say) then at best it would make you a safek heretic, because I have to be choshesh for the other side. Third, you ask what more I would want? The letters of _lots_ of gedolei yisrael saying something, not just one (even if he was a Soloveichik). Fourth, and this leads to my next point, my knowing you are wrong doesn't mean …
Now, lets see what R Soloveichik actually said. In a letter he wrote clarifying his position (which you conveniently failed to mention) he stated:
> To my great dismay. . . publications affiliated with the Lubavitch movement have persisted in stating that I validate their belief that a Jewish Messiah may be resurrected from the dead. I completely reject and vigorously deny any such claim. As I have already stated publicly. . . such a belief is repugnant to Judaism and is the antithesis of the...
> truth. My intent in signing the original letter . . . was merely to express my opinion that we should not label subscribers to these beliefs as heretics. Any statements in that letter which imply an endorsement of their view were not shown to me at the time I signed and I once again repudiate any such ridiculous claim.
So now that we have established that his word is final, I will call your claim ridiculous.
For more about this ridiculous claim, I ask you to note that no rabbi outside Chabad at all has ever said it is reasonable. Ever. They may say it's not kefira, but so are a lot of ridiculous things one can believe. Furthermore, if your claim is really that Mashiach will come from the dead (despite the fact that the Rambam rules Techiyat haMeitim happens after the Mashiach will come), please explain to me why it will be the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe, and not the first one?
Better yet, perhaps it will be the Taz? Shach? Raavya? Baal HaMaor? Maybe it will be R Yehoshua of the Mishna? Or even better: maybe it will be Daniyel from Tanach. Surely you wouldn't say any of the others I mentioned are greater than one who has a whole sefer named after them. And he's the one the Yerushalmi 'suggests' will be Mashiach.
@HodofHod You mean all seven Lubavitcher Rebbes are equally loved? I accept that.
Finally the fact that I know he isn't wasn't and won't be Mashiach is not because it is ideologically impossible (though it may be so). It's the same way I know you aren't a dog, despite that being logically possible. It's just obvious and trying to live life otherwise is futile.
@Danield So please stop assuming you are the only one who knows anything, and be willing to listen. Certainly all of klal yisrael isn't wrong for not believing in this (to use logic parallel to your: how can I paskin against them, hence I must paskin for them). I will certainly listen to you.
@DoubleAA I don't think he was using that logic at all. I think he was saying that you can't dismiss it out of hand. R' Soloveitchik's (alleged) letter was supposed to be exactly what he said it was: not out of the pale. (i'm not sure how something is the "antithesis to the truth" and not kefira at the same time, but hey!)
@HodofHod What if you believe that apples are purple? And you believe so very strongly. And nothing is wrong with your eyes (ie all other colors are right).
@HodofHod Then all my points still apply. He'd be a safek heretic. We paskin in Judaism all the time, even not being choshesh for relatively recent opinions. And even if you accept it isn't heresy doesn't make it not ridiculous, as R Soloveichik said.
@DoubleAA Mhm. So R' Soloveitchik is simply stating that while he believes such an opinion is wrong, he also believes that it is not out of the pale of Jewish belief?
@HodofHod Meaning he still counts in a minyan, but is a little 'confused' about some things. This seems to be the more prevalent view in non-Chabad circles. I personally don't know anyone who refuses to eat in a Chabadnik's house, certainly if he isn't actively Yechi-ing while he's there. But still I don't know of any non-Chabad Rabbis who think the Rebbe is still Mashiach.
I'm sure there are exceptions to the first group (someone refusing to eat Chabad shechita/wine), and there possible could be exceptions to the second group but I don't know of any.
@HodofHod No no, I mean from the reader's perspective. If the reader isn't allowed to reject an opinion on this out of hand, he would also have to be choshesh for the opinion that it is real heresy. (I understood Rav Shach to be in this camp, but I might be misinformed about that.)
@DoubleAA "A bashful person won't become learned" I'm still confused
Also "כל השביעין חביבין" is from Vayikra Rabba. It means the 7th davka, and is originally used referring to Moshe Rabbeinu bringing the shechina back to earth.
@HodofHod You are always welcome to ask! I was arguing that according to Danield's logic that bringing one opinion is enough to make us at least not reject that side (ie we must accommodate R Soloveichik that it isn't outside the pale or whatever), we must also not reject R Shach (again, a placeholder for the opinion which might be his that meshichistim are real heretics) and therefore we would be in a case of safek.
@HodofHod Ok. I'm not familiar enough with the phrase's provenance to say something really intelligent, but it sounds initially more like a support for one direction, but not l'ikuva that the Mashiach needs to be the seventh X.
@DoubleAA Agreed. But there is a running theme throughout the Rebbe's teachings about "dor hashvi'i" which is why Lubavitchers don't think it might be, say, the Alter Rebbe.
(Incidentally, to all those reading, I have intentionally not disclosed my opinion on the matter. I use "they" for all sides involved. This is because I prefer not to discuss controversial topics at all, and when I do, I try remove my "self" from the discussion AMAP.)
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This way, I minimize the amount of people who will be angry at me.
@HodofHod Seconded. It's an old tradition that Mashiach will have to be very good at knowing obscure English words. And every tag in the Mi Yodeya unsystematic list of tags. And generous with his points.
Is there a source in Judaism that indicates that Moshiach (Ben David, not Ben Yosef) will die before having fulfilled his role and then return to posthumously achieve it?
Discussion between Danield and Double AA
Discussion between Danield and Double AA