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12:00 AM
@KRyan I think in that book Weizenbaum was more interested in the human reaction to computers, really. His thesis about what computers can and can't do is framed in the context human behavior and tool use.
 
fair enough
and certainly, the majority of the population's behavior with and use of computers does leave something to be desired
 
He spent two years talking to sociologists and psychologists and so forth, all sparked by being shocked that people who had helped BUILD his chat machine were talking to it like a person.
 
huh
I'm surprised at that too
I can't remember anyone doing that with AIM chatbots, for example
and while those were very small-scale, they were also twenty-five years later
and would have been able to leverage his work
 
His conclusion was that our history of making tools that are extensions of our own capacity (lever = arm, etc) has led us to assume that ALL tools are extensions of our own capacity (clocks being largely ignored by this assumption). Computers look like they think, so we treat them like 'better' brains, despite them not being brainlike in any of the important ways brains are brainy.
 
I could see that, definitely
OK, coming around to this guy
 
12:03 AM
So we give computers jobs that brains should have, because computers are seen as brainlike tools.
 
yeah
the biggest problem I see is that people seem to refuse to accept that computers are big enough, important enough, and powerful enough to warrant dedicating time to actually learning them
 
...I'm guessing there isn't a badge for entirely derailing a general chat, eh?
 
not just learning how to accomplish task ABC by following steps 123, but actually understanding how to operate the tool in general
@BESW haha
 
@KRyan Then you're right up there with Weizenbaum. His basic thesis is "Know what a tool actually is capable of and why, before you go using it."
 
I mean, and we're still making this mistake. Kids get what, one computer class per week? put in the same category as stuff like Gym?
 
12:05 AM
He uses the word 'superstitious,' and compares it to people driving cars.
 
I could see the older crowd not wanting to learn something new; that's hard-wired into our brains and makes more sense in any case since it's not going to be shaping their entire lives the way it will for new generations
but to not make it a major part of children's education is simply... wrong.
 
I fully admit that I drive my car superstitiously: I engage in rituals that I expect to have certain effects, without fully (or often at all) understanding why my actions produce the effects.
 
but then there are also assumptions of privilege there
@BESW yeah, I can understand the point there, and ultimately we're too limited to not have that kind of attitude towards a lot of tools
my position is largely that, for almost everyone, no matter what, the computer should not be such a device
 
@KRyan YES. There are also assumptions of knowledge, too. It's often seen as generational. Anyone my dad's age knows cars, anyone my age knows computers.
 
I mean, I cannot tell you how often I get asked to do things on the computer that I have no idea how to do
I just Google it
but somehow people's brains shut off when it's computer things
@BESW see, I don't want to assume it, I want to make it so
and my comment about people's brains shutting off? that applies to my generation as much as any other
my girlfriend does that all the time; in a lot of ways my father does better with computers than she does
 
12:08 AM
I teach Word and Adobe programs vocationally. Last year I taught 300 Superior Court employees how to use Microsoft Word. The class included the xkcd "Tech Support Cheat Sheet," and the phrase "the ghost of Clippy still haunts the system."
 
@BESW I'm guessing you mean the material you inherited?
 
No, that's my contributions to the class content.
It was eye-opening for them.
But I also got paid $50 last week to burn three CDs, by a dentist who feels like his area of expertise is dentistry and mine is computers. I pay him to do dentist things and nobody expects me to learn to do it myself, and he does the same with me and computers.
There is more knowledge that is considered 'basic' or 'common' than there was fifty years ago. I don't know if that's reasonable or not, but I can see the dentist's point.
 
@BESW OK, I support the Tech Support Cheat Sheet; I had to look it up, I was remembering the wrong comic
 
To try and wrest this back to rpg chat, I'll give an example: do you expect everyone in a game group to be intimately familiar with the mechanics and errata of the entire game? I expect them to be familiar with the general rules and what applies to their own character.
 
not sure about the Ghost of Clippy bit
that seems to encourage treating it as superstition
 
12:14 AM
Heh. It's a joke; they all remember how awful Clippy was, and I'm warning them that while he's gone, the philosophy that created him is still strong in the development team.
 
@BESW I can too; my girlfriend makes the same one all the time. I'm just convinced that in the modern world, knowledge of computers is not the same as knowledge of dentistry or cars, it's more like knowledge of writing, or arithmetic
@BESW hmm, Word's changed a lot since then, and gone through at least one major shift in philosophy (not to mention UI)
 
@KRyan Then how far does it go? Should I know how to solder and splice wiring? Is it sufficient that I understand the idea of XOR gates?
 
@BESW I'd be happy with people understanding the definitions of "file", "folder", "program", "browser", and "web site"
and how the programs they use daily are organized
 
@KRyan But they still shove popups in your face when you highlight things, automatically change your content based on assumptions about your use of the program that are frequently dead wrong, and make it really hard to turn that stuff off.
 
rather than memorizing a series of steps
 
12:17 AM
@KRyan Browser/web site is a pet peeve of mine, I'll admit, but I really do understand where it's coming from. I notice that you did NOT include the difference between the Internet and the World Wide Web on that list. You probably would have ten years ago.
 
@BESW I know I would not have, but then I was also in high school at that time, so... but no, I think those concepts, other than browser and web site, are rather basic and have neither changed in meaning or importance much in the era of the personal computer
also, I wish the term "app" didn't exist
but apparently someone in marketing decided that the word "program" scared people
 
@KRyan There's an idea in programming called "Polite Programming." It's the idea that the user should remain in control of the program. Clippy is the poster child for what it isn't, and Microsoft Word continues to ignore this idea in favor of trying to make the program 'anticipate your needs.'
 
@BESW yes, and it's precisely in a (probably misguided) attempt to cater to the unlearning crowd. Those who expect the computer to just work, and that they shouldn't have to learn how to use it
also, they do a lot less of that then they once did
AutoCorrect is the only really significant form of that, and they're fairly conservative on most of the AutoCorrect terms
and hell, I'd include knowing where to look to turn that off to be part of knowing how a program they use daily is organized
I know that checkbox is buried a bit
and takes a little bit of digging
 
@KRyan Glad to hear it. Aside from teaching the program, I've been almost entirely Word-free since 2006 (Open Office, I love you). Still need Word on my machine because of clients, but yeah.
 
but people who use Word daily should know where to start digging, and shouldn't be afraid of doing so
@BESW blech, I really do not care for OpenOffice
 
12:22 AM
@KRyan You should not need to dig to turn something off, and I hotly contest your assertion that people who use Word daily know where to go to do it.
 
mind you, most of my experience is with Calc, not Docs, but Calc is a very poor replacement for Excel
@BESW I didn't say they do, I said they should
 
Having taught Word to people who were self-taught for years and still didn't know you could turn off the auto-tool-tip that pops up when you highlight something.
 
that's part of having a knowledge of the organization of a program you use daily
there hasn't been that box in like three versions of Word
 
lol
 
I think a lot of the underlying issue you're trying to address is not a matter of having knowledge, but of a) recognizing a lack of knowledge and b) knowing how to acquire it.
 
12:23 AM
I love Open Office, but Apache really did a number on it
 
@BESW yes, I'm not saying anyone should know exactly where that checkbox is
 
@BESW not an easy task.
 
I don't
but I know I could find it, probably on my first try and if not, then on my second
because I know how Word is organized and where stuff is
 
@KRyan You know how to find knowledge.
 
@BESW the XKCD Cheat Sheet is pretty much my method here
 
12:25 AM
If you weren't familiar with Word, you have strategies like the Tech Support Cheat Sheet, or Google.
 
except my first step is "click the button the I know is related to what I want to do"
which is yes, knowledge
but if that turned out to be wrong or if I didn't know it, then yes, exactly
XKCD cheat sheet
 
@LitheOhm Recognizing when you don't know something is a skill very undervalued. People who have it generally don't realize it IS a skill. People who don't, for obvious reasons, don't value it at all.
6
 
I don't think anyone could program without it
 
Programming is not a common skill set. [grin]
 
though programming, perhaps, is focused enough that it's obvious when you don't know things
@BESW of course, that was more just a commentary on how it was important and musing on people in my field
 
12:27 AM
@KRyan In a good language, especially.
 
@BESW yeah, but only because in a bad language the stupid jury-rigged method you're thinking of might actually be the only way to do it
 
@BESW you are absolutely correct. One of my favorite quotes from Descartes is where he discussed gaining more knowledge only to realize that he knew less and less
more or less, an answer that only leads to more questions.
 
this is related to the uhhhh
what was the name.
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes. Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others". ...
that one
 
@KRyan the original reason I jumped onto the chat was to tease you about opening a comment with "uhhh" (Pathfinder spell level). Thought better of it, but now I'm rethinking ;D lol
 
@KRyan Gets WAAAAY over used, I think, but the point is taken.
 
12:29 AM
I like that
@KRyan thank you, bookmarking
have you read "Why We Make Mistakes"? Talks a lot about similar things
we all estimate our own ability to be way above average, etc
 
I am reminded of the astronomy class in which, during a break, one student asked the other, "Why are we studying about light? This is astronomy. We should be studying, like stars and planets."
 
yeah
 
analyzes the underlying causes of our misjudgments
 
@BESW ah, haha
 
@BESW lol
I've so been the harbinger of some dumb questions like that. Usually I try and play it off all catlike, but sometimes it's just not possible
 
12:30 AM
have you, by any chance, seen Back to School?
 
@KRyan Probably not.
 
@LitheOhm that's the one
not really relevant, but highly recommended
 
nope but I love Rodney Dangerfield
 
Yeah, no, but there's a word for that.
An opsimath can refer to a person who begins, or continues, to study or learn late in life. The word is derived from the Greek ὀψέ (opse), meaning 'late' and μανθάνω (manthano), meaning 'learn'. Opsimathy was once frowned upon, used as a put down with implications of laziness, and considered less effective by educators than early learning. The emergence of "opsimath clubs" has demonstrated that opsimathy has shed much of this negative connotation, and that this approach may, in fact, be desirable. Notable opsimaths include Sir Henry Rawlinson, the fictitious character Sir Henry Rawlinson...
 
12:32 AM
badass
 
brought it up cuz one of the characters gets with the girl when she goes to him for help with Astronomy, since she hadn't realized that it was a Physics course, not a... I dunno, stargazing course
@BESW aha, a title to strive for
 
nice
 
@KRyan I ran across it trying to help a player name his PC: a gnome who changed alignment and attitude very late in life. Is now named Opse Manthano. very gnomey.
 
@LitheOhm I really haven't seen much of his work, just Back to School. He's brilliant in it, though
 
(See? I'm trying to bring it back to rpg-chat.)
 
12:34 AM
@BESW aha, awesome awesome
yeah, I've gotta get going soon, so the chat will probably veer back in its intended direction
 
I'm a fan of very ecclectic learning. Unfortunately sometimes it means I'm comparing my own knowledge with those of teenaged enthusiasts. One's got to feel dumb before they can become smart, I guess
@Besw awesome
Rover Dangerfield was a fun animated flick, main character voiced by Rodney Dangerfield. Otherwise I don't have much experience with him myself
 
the premise is that he's a self-made success who never went to college, and in a misguided attempt to encourage his son to go, decides to go himself. Hilarity ensues
 
....dude. People need to stop starring my babbling psuedo-wisdom. It's embarrassing.
 
@BrianBallsun-Stanton We read about Soren Kierkegaard last week. Do you think as I do, that he would have loved a good roleplaying game? What with how he used all the pseudonyms and such. I love PCs/DMs who aren't afraid to get into character
 
Isn't that the guy that shouts "Hey everybody, we're gonna get laid!" in some 80s movie?
 
12:37 AM
@BESW I dig it :P
@somori have you played Call of Cthulu?
 
bye all
 
@LitheOhm My very first tabletop RPG session, I was the GM, and one of the players managed to walk us right into him picking up a prostitute. that was some 'getting into character' to scar a guy.
 
@KRyan talk with you later
 
@KRyan ttfn
 
@BESW ahh that's brilliant. I've had some fun ones but rarely was it anyone else in character. I am nuts for a good roleplay lol
 
12:40 AM
@BESW Luckily, I have never been in that situation. I just helped Nyarlathotep to bring back dead people to act as his heralds...
 
@LitheOhm But generally yes, I call my players by their PC names for the entire session and while they rarely do voices I do, and they're great at staying true to their characters.
 
Coolness :). I once sang in a bugbear voice à la ohhh....what's his name...
 
@LitheOhm Please say BRIAN BLESSED.
 
Louis Armstrong
 
@LitheOhm That works too.
 
12:42 AM
haha
listening to Brian Blessed now
 
@LitheOhm I recently helped a player finish a 16-level character arc that walked his half-orc from being a bigoted manifest-destiny racist to shutting down a rebellion that was trying to put him on the throne and becoming a priest-advisor to the true king.
 
@LitheOhm Is he doing snooker commentary?
@BESW Now that is cool :)
 
I love him best as KING YCARNOS.
 
yeah, they got the listen check from down the hall, so he was serenading himself and his pets. Unexpectedly, they decided to wait down the hall for him to finish his song. Improv and a lack of self consciousness for the win lol
@BESW ohhhh yeah. Love, love the dynamism
 
@LitheOhm My players love it when some NPC who would obviously be a no-line carbon-copy mook in a video game turns out to be doing/saying something that makes it clear everyone in the world has a personality and nobody's just silent cannon fodder.
 
12:45 AM
awesome. Sending that to a friend who was raised on AD&D now lol
@BESW awesome :D
 
Like, there was a boulder with a levitation spell that made it automatically cover and uncover a door every few rounds. Two guards were on the boulder side of the door, the party was on the other side.
The fastest guy runs through while the door is open. One guard is gesturing at the boulder in time with its movement and the other is watching. PC takes out the gesturing guard immediately to stop him from closing the door.
The boulder moves to close the door anyway, and the party collapses in laughter as they realize he was doing the D&D equivalent of gesturing your hands in time with the automatic doors in the supermarket.
 
hahaha
love it. One of my PCs (sorta new) had to be taught a lesson about metagaming. She got ahold of a bag and had been asking me for a bag of holding for the past several sessions. I put one in the world for her but it would still be a while. The bag she stuck her head into was a tanglefoot bag.
thankfully, her NPC consort was close by. Once she (I) stopped laughing, we rescued her from her own depradations. Thou shalt not metagame, commandment enforced. By accident, too
 
@LitheOhm Aw. That's a little mean, but so long as it wasn't in combat just humiliating.
 
it wasn't. Just humiliating. I didn't even plan it either
 
I had a player who did the exact opposite, actually. He was new to the game and constantly built characters so complicated that he couldn't track them and RP well, and he always wanted to RP.
So I watched helplessly as his pixie (character note: curious) worked her way through an entire room of cursed items.
 
12:52 AM
hehe
 
Three lodestones (speed reduced to 2.5 feet), a -4 curse on just about every d20 roll, nearly eaten by a bag of devouring, cursed half the party, and kept on going.
 
hers is fairly simple, so far. She helped a lot of my creativity come back too - I used to be such a huge rules cruncher. See my question on rules bogging people down, etc
three lodestones omg
she's a trooper.
Tasselhoff?
from Dragonlance
 
Finally died to a necklace of strangulation, and I pulled the guy aside and we built a very simple character so he could focus on RP without making the party swear bloody vengeance on his corpse.
 
haha
my friend designs RPGs and says this of 3.5 learners: Memorize this phrase. "I want to play a human figher."
 
Gave him a rules-variant rogue that was basically an Indiana Jones skill monkey. Had nothing to keep track of. If it was on his sheet he could do it as often as he wanted under any reasonable circumstance.
 
12:55 AM
good thinking
 
For level 1, yes. But fighters at high levels got really hard to track. All the magic items and conditional-trigger feats add up.
 
gtg, gf booting me lol. Talk later :) have a good night/morning/wherever and whatever it is heh
ah
 
After that he blossomed and became one the best, most immersive RPers I've ever had the honor of working with.
@LitheOhm ttfn
 
@BESW a rare treat
 
I'm gonna afk myself for a bit, give the chat a chance to cool down.
 
1:53 AM
If I took Improved natural attack(Claw) when I have claws from one source and then lose that source and gain another does it still apply to those claws?
also good evening
 
@Novian That's a weird enough edge case to make a full question.
 
really?
 
@somori Agree with that. My reading is that [claw] is a type so it would carry over.
 
Although you'd want to put in full details of the exact situation you are in (with quotes).
 
I will
Its how I read the question too.
I mean feat not question
 
1:56 AM
@BESW It's a weirdness with the feat system. What happens if you lose and regain the prerequisites for feats in general.
 
The feat says it applies to a chosen "natural attack form" and the natural attack entry.... says nothing about "forms" but discusses "types" at length as generic subcategories with their own subset of conditions.
 
@BESW Oh god, more poor definition in natural attacks.
 
the phrasing of the question is a little dificult
 
@somori PHB 87: "A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. For example, if your character's Strength drops below 13 because of a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can't use the Power Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met."
 
Fair enough, I'd forgotten that was written down somewhere :P
 
1:59 AM
@Novian Your original phrase in this chat was nearly good enough. Then add the specific case and relevant rules text.
 
What BESW said.
 
I think it boils down to whether Improved Natural Attack [type] applies to general cases of a character's natural attacks of type or if each instance of type attack needs to have a separate feat.
But, um, it's been nearly two years since I've done anything practical with 3.5 and I was never up on the errata.
@somori My D&D worlds will never be the same now that I have discovered the GLORY that is a racist half-orc.
 
@BESW Being arrested by a half-orc paladin?
 
@somori I dunno how much you know 4e lore, but there's this god Kord.
 
Or an orc paladin even.
 
2:05 AM
He's the unaligned god of storms and beating up bullies. He's kinda like fratboy Thor.
 
@BESW Haha, quite a bit. I had a Wildling Warden who was building up to become the lightning part of Kord during a bizarre time-travel plot.
 
And some half-orcs believe that he created their race (rather than just being the product of orcs raping human women) as the perfect balance between the physical prowess of the orc and the mental flexibility of the human.
 
question posted
 
@BESW That's cool :)
 
I took this and ran with it: the Indian-themed half-orc empire of Samrajya, with a strict society designed to guide orc violence into productive human-mentality channels.
And one of my players made his PC a Samrajyan palace guard who was obsessed with the Old Days of when the Samrajyan Empire spanned thousands of miles and they fought the giants to free the dwarves and goliaths and minotaurs.
Except he also believed that Samrajya had conquered the Feywild and other ridiculous things, and was so convinced of Samrajyan and half-orc superiority he believed Bahamut was Kord's mount.
 
2:11 AM
@BESW Haha!
 
About halfway through the game Kamola (delusionally racist PC) wrote a blank check to whatever deity/power was willing to do a very massive favor for him.
 
@BESW What did he want?
 
ULTIMATE POWER!
 
@Novian That's ninjas :P
 
MORE TACO's?
 
2:16 AM
@somori A recurring villain had just killed Kamola's best friend in a very hateful way. Upon subduing Davith the Wicked, Kamola prayed that Davith be imprisoned on that spot until he was able to look at the friend's helmet (propped in front of him) without hatred.
 
@BESW Shiny.
 
Due to the astonishing nature of this prayer, Nusemnee (not yet dead due to this campaign taking place 2000 years before the 'modern' setting) granted it in her capacity as the goddess of mercy and second chances.
 
I would have done worse
 
@Novian yeah, it was a MAJOR character shift for Kamola
Through his dealings with Nusemnee, Kamola later gained training in Religion, at which point he realized how WRONG his world view had been.
(He also found 300 Classical-era Samrajyan soldiers frozen in a tapestry in an old dungeon, and the process of freeing them helped him see the Classical Era without rose-coloured glasses.)
 
My torture would be about the same but with everburning flames of pure pain until the conditions were met.
I am vengeful
 
2:20 AM
@Novian Kamola had great experience with hate and bitterness, and knew that it burns hotter than any flame.
 
oooor do what they did in the anime bleach with that superhuman serum.
it was an aweful way to go
a single second was an eternity.
traped within yourself
 
He was later given the chance to rule Samrajya himself and rebuild it after a devastating war, but he rejected the rebellion in his name when he discovered that the primal multiclass feat he'd taken made him technically a Samrajyan priest and thus under Classical law ineligible to be nominated as a Ruler.
 
nothing is a greater torture than eternity.
 
(But priests are the electorate who raise up the Ruling class, so he became the priestly advisor to the blatantly unsuitable young man who had the right to the throne, and retired the character from the game to work on training the Raja in the ways of wisdom and duty.)
There was a lot of other campaign/plot stuff going into it; if he'd tried to take the throne it might have sent the entire world into a despotic empire doomed to crumble and destroy all civilization for a thousand years. But it was still very hard for him to turn it down, especially when the rightful king thpoke with an inthufferable lithp and had body mods to make him look more like a dragonborn.
 
religion is a strange thing. advocating eternity for the faithful. actually had a character refuse to go with his god to her home plane to exist as her advisor for eternity and instead asked that his soul be destroyed instead. He feared eternity more than killing his wifes undead corpse.
he did get revenge on that necromancer though.
 
2:29 AM
@Novian An eternity to learn and grow and meet challenges is great. Unchanging eternity is unbearable.
 
that was how the character saw eternity as an unchanging void
 
@Novian Eternity is not a condition, it's a duration.
 
@BESW There is an argument to be made that unchanging eternity would negate consciousness. If there is no change, there can be no thought.
 
He actually about near had a philosophical debate with a dragon. he was knocked out by the parties fighter. He had a tendency to argue and take time doing so.
apparently some dragons like to talk before munching on adventurers
 
@Novian My favorite kind of dragon.
 
2:34 AM
That dragon lived because it could fly....
our wizard was out on other buisness
 
Heh.
My dragons are strongly influenced by the novel The Dragons of the Cuyahoga. Among other things, they don't like gold and jewels; they like power, and gold and jewels are the easiest, most universal way to have power over humanoids.
 
damn wizard and his books.....I wanted dragon hide.
not in character but out of
 
They're very abstract thinkers, and if you can keep them talking about that kind of stuff without getting impatient with you, you have a decent chance of getting out intact.
 
I did learn a thing or two from him. He didnt much care for beholder eyes.
 
(And really, there are better, more constructive ways of showing disapproval than eating you. More creative, too.)
 
2:37 AM
well for them being thrown at him
I had a beholder eye and I thought it would be funny to chuck it at a dragon.
and it was.
Improvised weapon damage is pitiful though.
 
Rule 11. Everything is air-droppable at least once.
 
not if it doesnt fall.
 
Including elephants, according to Dennis O'Leary.
 
....air drop and elephant
....
 
Operation Dumbo Drop - it's a very silly idea for a movie.
 
@BESW One for the list :)
 
@somori List?
 
Reading list.
 
Ah, right.
 
ahahahahahahahaha
I choose to live by this code and the 13 suggestions
the 13 suggestions are a code that I wrote that contains an unknown number of suggestions that are followed by the phrase "or be smitten" or smited whatever word applies. the first of which is "there are only 13 suggestions, do not question them, OR BE SMITTEN."
 
2:50 AM
@Novian "Smote," I think, but I never can keep track when to use the past participle (which is "smitten").
 
did you just question the 13 suggestions?
SMITE!
 
@BESW I think it's a "if you have to ask, you don't need to worry about it" kind of situation.
 
the first one is written incorectly on purpose.
 
@BESW I believe you are correct but with that particular word the past and past participle are commonly used interchangeably, with greater concern for their sound/aesthetics/"smitten"'s connotation with love than for technical correctness
 
and "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries" seems only to contain 38
 
2:54 AM
Schlock Mercenary is great
 
@somori Somewhere up in today's chat are a couple of other reading suggestions. @BrianBallsun-Stanton made at least one, and I suggested Joseph Weizenbaum's Computer Power and Human Reason.
 
@Novian: if you like this, you should look up the 1,001 things I am no longer allowed to do in Eberron
 
Seen them. Bit off my path at the moment.
 
also, the wonderful Mr. Welch
no idea if that's his, but it was the highest number I could find
 
@KRyan I come from a long line of People For Whom Language Is Important, and while I'm sadly deficient in terminology I can usually intuit how things ought to go.
 
2:55 AM
there is one thing I am not allowed to do in D&D anymore.
despite the drawbacks.
 
@BESW yeah, I suck with terminology too, but I'm pretty sure you're right here
 
@BESW Any idea where smoten comes in to it?
 
@KRyan Also, whatever valid points are to be made about boilerplate ghost-written YA fiction, the Hardy Boys and the Boxcar Children provide a very solid foundation for language and storytelling conventions.
@somori Pretty sure it doesn't.
 
@BESW man, I loved those books
 
Smite, smites, smiting, smote, smit [obs], smitten.
 
2:59 AM
"smit"?
new one on me
 
Obsolete version of smote
 
aha
no wonder
sounds really silly
 
Hmmm, must be a Homerism.
 
smote sounds kind of silly too
 
And, obviously, the derivative of past participle smitten which has survived while smit has not. LANGUAGE!
 
2:59 AM
haha
yeah, English particularly
 
@KRyan "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle [sic] their pockets for new vocabulary."
2
 
@BESW I love that quote.
 
@BESW ahahaha, so wonderfully true
who's that by?
 
@KRyan Depends on who you ask. Try this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
thanks
 
3:03 AM
We're talking about a language whose grammar was entirely rebuilt by hoity intellectuals a couple hundred years ago because "Latin grammer is cooler," but the general population only paid attention to some of the re-write, and that irregularly across the world.
The ultimate issue is that people try to pretend language of ANY sort is static. It's a living, breathing thing with conventions of context that should be adhered to within the appropriate context. The only problem with an evolving language is if it is evolving to lose meaning in a significant way.
 
@BESW Ie. The French. Silly proprietary people.
 
(But Fowler is hilarious anyway, and I really respect him for having articulate thoughtful opinions.)
 
@KRyan 148 -150 are hilarious
in fact all of them are even though I got no clue about the ebberon setting
 
@Novian "Magipunk D&D with an elaborate sociopolitical underpinning."
 
@Novian only some are Eberron anyway
 
3:10 AM
I understand it kind of but all the characters and organisations confuse me.
who the hell is Aurala
 
the only relevant things are that Queen Aurala's a bitch, King Boranel's awesome, and Jaela Daran, Keeper of the Flame (Pope-analgoue to the Church of the Silver Flame's Catholic Church-analogue) is an eleven-year-old girl
 
@Novian Mmm. I've never made any attempt to get my head around the details of pre-made settings.
 
@KRyan ....can i still use it to roast marshmallows?
 
the Silver Flame? it's certainly up to the task, though you'd probably have an awfully difficult time getting to it unless invited, an invitation you'd quickly lose if you pulled out marshmellows
the setting more or less caps out at ~10, and several of the regular clerics in the Cathedral are about that level
and the Keeper herself counts as level 18 while within the Cathedral, which is enough to go toe-to-toe with just about anyone in the setting
 
@KRyan Maybe that should be rephrased as prevent the cathedral getting knocked over by the other threats of the setting.
 
3:14 AM
@somori well, yes. obviously she can't go out and pick fights like that, because of her own power she's just a Cleric 3
and also an eleven-year-old girl
I really feel like that should be emphasized, because it is hilarious and bizarre
 
What I mean is, it's clear that she's designed that way to make the silver flame a solid and logical pillar of the setting.
Avoiding the epic wizards problem of FR, for instance.
 
oh yes, definitely
 
Kalashtar, or Psions in general, named Akira or Tetsuo will be immediately pitched overboard (regardless of altitude).

I get not this rule.
 
Go watch Akira
Do it now.
 
ah so thats what its refering to
i didnt think of that
I have watched it.
 
3:26 AM
That's alright then :)
 
@Novian Akira and Tetsuo are characters in the manga/anime Akira, which is about psychic powers.
 
I have watched it it just didnt come to mind immediatley
 
"374. I am not to combine the advantage Fearless and the disadvantage Curious in the same character again."
 
@KRyan I've run games for those PCs. One of them set the Arcane District on fire. (Magical air pollution is bad.)
 
haha
 
4:02 AM
So, I get the impression I probably have more experience with 4e modules than the average person on this site and I really want to give a good answer to this question: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/19176/…
But I really can't think of a short module that I didn't have to rip apart and rebuild to make it work.
Does anyone have ideas about what the system's strengths are that a short adventure could show off?
All that's coming to my mind to suggest is Smiley Bob.
 
 
4 hours later…
7:52 AM
@KRyan good question about death.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:05 AM
@LitheOhm Yes indeed. In my experience my players either enjoy PC death because it lets them pull out another exciting character they want to use, or I make death very unlikely/easy to fix. I recently had a PC die in the Shadowfell, and introduced an easy skill challenge that basically let them keep his soul and body together for another 24 hours: only usable in the Shadowfell, and if he left he'd get a lot of penalties like sunlight damage.
It was enough to finish the adventure uninterrupted and then walk him to a cleric.
But in my games usually player death only comes about from climactic boss fights or massive player stupidity. (I actually had one guy OD on healing potions.)
So.... not a lot to add to what's been said, just that it's an issue I fix largely by avoiding it.
Dropped usually means capture, not death (even unthinking beasts carry you back to their lair to eat you) which means opportunities for RP or escape.
Your PCs are Main Characters. Luke got taken back to the ice cave, Merry and Pippin were tied up and force-marched, etc.
 
9:43 AM
@BESW Not to mention Sam having to rescue Frodo. :) Though in general, when a lethal conflict breaks out, my gloves are off. My players have enough characters ready to go so that the occasional death isn't an issue.
 
@MartinSojka I have the gloves on or off depending on how invested the player is in that particular character's story, and how likely resurrection might be in that scenario.
 
10:18 AM
Sounds like the first part is hard to guess ...
 
@MartinSojka Has a lot to do with what they say when I ask "What do you want to see in the next few levels?"
"A dragon!" or "This +4 Sword of Disemboweling" or "A chance for revenge on Davith the Wicked" are viable options, and each tells me something about the player and his interests in the game.
 
@BESW Now, that's a question I couldn't even answer as a player. :)
 
@MartinSojka Not even a +4 Sword of Disemboweling?
 
@BESW My character might have wishes, goals and motivations. As a player, I fully expect most of the goals to fail, most of the motivations to turn out misguided, and most of the wishes to come with unforeseen and very much unwanted consequences. And I also fully expect the character to die, give up or retire before he even manages to reach half of what remains.
 
@MartinSojka A player like that might ask me for a scenario that gives his PC a chance to try achieving one of those things, or an item, or just something that you think would be cool ("A dragon!").
 
10:25 AM
@BESW Why would I? As a player, I don't need scenarios handed down to me, my character seeks them himself.
 
It's a deliberately open question that lets the player help determine the tone and direction of the game. And I ask it often.
@MartinSojka I've had players ask me to put their characters in positions that the characters would never seek out, so that they could respond to it and grow the characters.
It can be a narrative thing, or a matter of PC vs player knowledge, or a myriad other things.
 
@BESW Wouldn't botching a few Diplomacy rolls while at the local lord's banquet (or similar such situation) do that by itself, game-mechanically? :)
 
I once had a character who went into town looking to do good deeds, but it took the player to tell me that he specifically wanted to save someone from a burning house.
(There's no way that character would wake up one day and say "Gee, I hope I find a house on fire with children inside it so I can be a hero by saving them!")
(But the player wanted to see if he could achieve that specific scenario.)
 
See, I never - as a player - want such things. If there's a burning house, good; some characters might save someone if possible, others might be more worried about stopping the fire spreading, while others might not care for anything aside their own safety. If there isn't a burning house ... good as well, my character obviously has business in the town anyway, so we have enough to do.
For all I care as a player, you can use a random town event table. :)
 
@MartinSojka Players like you provide a valuable service to GMs when we need to get the darn plot moving again; players who ask for "A chance to save the king from an assassin" give me the plot in the first place. Both very valuable roles that I like having in my groups.
Example: My current campaign started with requests for "Dragons and/or dragonborn," "a justification for my PC to play an elephant-riding palace guard," "something Lovecraftian," and "something political."
Right there I've got great stuff for my setting and my plots. But when the party should be running kobolds out of town, it's the guys who want "something political" who are content to hobnob with the local witch doctor instead.
(Which is great, and I've run campaigns on that, but here we also have the guy who WILL kill another PC if he doesn't get another way to have combat this session.)
 
 
1 hour later…
12:01 PM
Single player character 4e campaign: reasonable? doable? sanity-snapping?
 
12:17 PM
Unlikely to work without severe focus bending. 4e's rules aren't much more than tactical combat rules for small teams. Your choices are mostly heavy house-ruling, not focusing on combat and adding NPCs to fill out the "team".
 
@MartinSojka My potential player (not til March at least) feels he has a warden build that can hold his own against encounters with the appropriate XP cost.
Having run a single encounter against it, I was impressed.
What about Dresden Files? Anybody got experience with small/single-player parties in that?
 
1:11 PM
...or Mouse Guard? (Not sure if he'll go for that, but it looks fun.)
 
1:47 PM
@BESW dwarf warden might be the exception to the rule. the damage is solid and they have enough self healing. The caution would be not to use a lot of action denial
 
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