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02:00 - 08:0008:00 - 00:00

8:00 AM
Authoritative claims. Einstein said so
are you OK with that?
I remeber of...
Well, I'm gonna say it.
ok. so we have advertisement for one side, authority from another. Lets follow a little
Science is a social construct. I guess you know that
nvm (what I would say)
I guess that everything we have is a social construct.
no, no Seriously
I don't know if you're trying to build a dicotomy on biological and social.
8:04 AM
If all respectable physicists say they saw the sun turning red, there will be zillions of $$$ for researching that. A social construct, for good or evil.
agree? and no ... I am well beyond the bio/hard science conflict
The third pillar is important. I want to know if you agree
Now we have a thing (science) whose power among society is based on:
1) good advertisement
2) authoritative sources
3) A social construct
@belisarius You were supposed to have just 1 glass of wine, not the whole bottle. What are you, French?
@R.M shut up you damned toad. I will kiss and condemn you to live with Prince Harry
@R.M Let him talk, today is friday.
8:10 AM
@GustavoBandeira nope, not clicking that.
ok one step further
@R.M You'll never kkow what it is.
@belisarius You can proceed with your argument.
re read the three pillars. Go back 200 years. What is it?
@GustavoBandeira oh, I know. Trust me.
@R.M Click it. For fun fun fun fun.
8:12 AM
@belisarius I thought you were Prince Hairy...
1812 ... what is it?
@belisarius 200 years before the end of the world, according to Mayans
@R.M C'mon .. this chat is for educated people, no toads
Ok, it's late here (not as late as there) and I need to sleep. You can continue your dialogue (or monologue)
I mean, for ppeople
8:14 AM
@belisarius I imagine it's something that used the same pillars to build something devilish, right?
@R.M No, stay
Just don't click Gustavo's youtube links... Old people like you might be tricked
@R.M I am talking to him...
one more min
@belisarius ok
8:16 AM
It was the French revolution. By 1812, the whole (European) world was under Napoleon. Nap was not a monster, he was the only way to defend the French rev from monarchies.
And he won (at least for a few years)
anyway, the French rev,. was based on those three pillars
and some head cuts
now, go back another 200 years
it's 1612
What was going on?
Galileo Galilei (; 15 February 1564 – 8 January 1642), was an Italian physicist, mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who played a major role in the Scientific Revolution. His achievements include improvements to the telescope and consequent astronomical observations and support for Copernicanism. Galileo has been called the "father of modern observational astronomy", the "father of modern physics", the "father of science", His contributions to observational astronomy include the telescopic confirmation of the phases of Venus, the discovery of the four largest satellites...
Giordano Bruno (; 1548 – February 17, 1600), (Latin: Iordanus Brunus Nolanus) born Filippo Bruno, was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in proposing that the Sun was essentially a star, and moreover, that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings. After the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy for his pantheism, he was burned at the stake. After his death he gained considerable fame, particularly among 19th- and early 20th-cent...
That was happening
You're trying to trace some kind of connection, but I can't see it.
They were killing scientists
@GustavoBandeira Yep. But the connection is subtle. If I simply write it, you'll forget it in a while
remember the three pillars
who were using them?
@GustavoBandeira yep. Let's call it religion. The church is just one possible incarnation
8:25 AM
so, returning to our starting point. Why does your taxi driver believe in science?
The three pillars you suggested?
note that I use the verb "believe".
Why do you think I used that verb?
science ... beliefs ... seem divorced ...
Are you trying to say that there's a natural propension to believe?
Not at all. There are no "natural" things in humanity. We lost them as soon as we could make tools.
A young mother will not give her breast to her child if she is not told to
we are not "natural" anymore
we are social
strongly social
I was talking with a friend yesterday, he told me about a nihilistic view on this: In which they abandon such hypothesis.
The hypothesis on the difference between human and natural.
8:32 AM
and now think a little about what is the glue that ties a society together
The three pillars?
just the third
society is a construct
based upon its own legitimation
you need to live in a society, because you are human. So you NEED to believe in social constructs (in some of the at least)
Which of them will you take as true?
This is basically what made me doubt on religion while I was ~15. I tried to think about a ultimate legitimation one that would arise outside social constructs. Now I feel I was a little naive.
Well ... you were 15. Right on time
Which of them will you take as true?
that is the question
tht is why science is taken for granted
that is why religion was taken for granted
That is why we should educate. Because if not, anything based in the first two pillars IS true
makes sense?
@belisarius This made me have a doubt also on beliefs, I started to think that beliefs which were true are now false and it seems that our minds are like robotics arms, which manipulate beliefs - the strange part is: In some cases, these beliefs are strongly soldered into these robotic arms.
@belisarius Yes.
Everytime I propose such an argument, my mind automatically asks: And what about the belief you just had on these robotic arms?
8:41 AM
@GustavoBandeira That is because the powers that be, in any society are not foreign. They could be evil, but ARE part of the society
There are also points on these manipulations - They're not as freely as my argument proposes.
They command, and are commanded
well, enough science for today. Keep thinking
I remember of reading something like this: Our languange may limit what we can think - I felt this as an obstacle to my universal legitimation idea.
your metaphor about "robotic arms" is quite good, but of couse not completely true
@belisarius Even with my adition to it?
@belisarius The point in your argument is brilliant.
8:45 AM
your language limitations are indeed your thinking barrier. Humans needed speech first, then technology, and whatever
@GustavoBandeira I am pretty sure it is not "mine argument". It's probably the result of a few books.
@belisarius Yep, but this is conspicuous: The shoulders of giants metaphor.
I'm not so naive to believe that you were misteriously born in a desert island and developed all this out of sand, sea and coconut.
@GustavoBandeira Sorry, I lost the pointer to "your" addition, I was weighting it as a whole. What was it?
This languange barrier is strange, I ask me some things:
- How will our languange be in the future?
- What's the source of new linguistic constructs?
- Is there a way to speed up this linguistic construction?
@GustavoBandeira hehe ... read Chomsky. Do you know him?
@belisarius This one:
8 mins ago, by Gustavo Bandeira
There are also points on these manipulations - They're not as freely as my argument proposes.
@belisarius Of course. But I never read his books.
8:52 AM
@GustavoBandeira You should, both sides of him are brillant. As a linguist and as a politician
well, anarchist
but he is really a jewel
Gonna get some books on him.
Chomsky studied the first two pillars extensively. Perhaps some of the ideas I wrote before are (badly exposed) his ideas.
More books to my colection, I already own ~3000 books.
@GustavoBandeira Nice! ... I may feel comfortable with much less :)
I feel me like Borges - Or at least with the image I have on him.
8:55 AM
I had the pleasure to talk to him a few times.
A nice guy. Shy. Brilliant.
@belisarius You talked to Chomsky?
no, Borges :)
Isn't Borges a fiction history? - At least I thought it was.
ok. I need some sleep. Hope I wasn't a heavy load
@GustavoBandeira So, I am a fiction too
Nah, it was nice to talk to you.
8:59 AM
@belisarius A secret: I am Jesus - You're going to hell.
@GustavoBandeira I knew. Now to sleep
@belisarius Ok. Good night.
3 hours later…
12:09 PM
Obtained by using FindMinimum[Abs[x/Sin[x] + y/Sin[2*y] - (x*y)/Sin[2*x*y]], {x, initValue}, Method -> "PrincipalAxis"] to scan the whole $[0,10]\times [0,10]$ domain. Takes me more than 2 min ...
Hi Gustavo! :D
@Silvia Ho did you do this image:
I'm trying to find a way plot complex contour graphics..
I mean complicated
I tried every functions I thought to be compilable, and made a memo note. So it's just brute force LOL
12:22 PM
In fact I used to ask WRI for the encoding table of CompiledFunction, but they told me there isn't an up to date one.
@Silvia I presume you know about Sinc[]?
@J.M. Oh I really forgot it! :D
But the problem with this function is not about the removable singularity?
@Silvia No, more of simplifying your equation ever so slightly...
@J.M. I'm thinking of finding all key points (those where curvature minimized, maximized or becomes 0) first, then approximating each piece with order-2 spline.
Ah, so you want the curvature of that implicit curve?
12:38 PM
@J.M. An equation looked complicated in appearance makes me feeling more powerful in heart! :D
Anyway: there's formula 17 here.
@Silvia Any particular reason for wanting a quadratic spline?
Yes. I encountered some difficulties here, so I altered to scan the whole domain trying to get an outline first.
@J.M. I would like a smooth looking, so quadratic looks fine.
Well, the cubic spline is usually the go-to if you want continuity up to the second derivative ($C^2$ continuity)...
@J.M. I have the formula. But having problem when tracing the curve begin from a given point -- I did it by solving an ODE here, the efficiency is too bad.
@J.M. If just plotting for naked-eye observation, is the quadratic one more lightweight than the cubic one?
At first glance I thought plane curve will be a trivial case..
12:54 PM
@Silvia Ah, well, solving an ODE is a "desperation move", as far as plotting these things are...
@Silvia Well, you don't have the guarantee of "smoothness" for quadratic splines. Simplicity, sure...
@Silvia Implicitly-defined curves are always difficult to do; more so if the functions involved are transcendental...
@J.M. Indeed, so I'm still looking for a better idea..
@J.M. In that case I'll rise the order to 3:)
Also: quadratic splines cannot mimic inflexions, so if your curve has inflexion points, you can't use quadratics.
@J.M. no there will be no inflexion points. I found all key points as I described above, and segment the curve by them, so each piece will be monotonous convex
I'd still use a ContourPlot[], gather up the points, and then interpolate a spline across them. There might be a more clever approach, but it's not coming to me at the moment.
On another note: you know the program GrafEq, right?
ContourPlot doesn't perform well enough for some 'strange' functions, like the one in my graphics above..
1:09 PM
@Silvia Yes, you'll need to overwork it a bit with an increased value of PlotPoints...
It's an example from GrafEq.
@J.M. Simply increase PlotPoints or MaxRecursion won't help much :(
@Silvia I know; it's a start though...
Anyway: transcendentals are tough, indeed.
@J.M. (didn't see this msg just now.. Strange, I need to refresh the page manually to load new msgs..)
@Silvia Hmm, odd latency...
@J.M. it is indeed. I'll see how far I can go :)
@J.M. does it look like a compatibility issues between chat and chrome, or it's the problem with my network?
1:25 PM
@Silvia Hard to tell. Maybe you can put up a meta thread so that the devs can look into it.
@J.M. Sounds good idea.
2 hours later…
3:18 PM
@J.M. I have the same problem in peda.com with the plot Silvia linked that I have had the other day with yours. Switched browsers (I was using FF) and it works now. Curious.
3 hours later…
6:24 PM
@R.M ring ring...
@Mr.Wizard hello?
Hi there. :-)
Regarding post 4040, I'm wondering how to best handle that.
You say the best answer is in the closed (now deleted) question, yet you recommend against merging; isn't that a poor option?
Ah, well... it was only because the examples were different, but you're right.
Also, I had only deleted because I saw, perhaps incorrectly, Jens' answer there as a duplicate of this one: mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/4025/…
I'd be happy to reopen and merge, but as it stands having "the best answer" in the closed thread feels weird.
I'm also not trying to run the show on this, just do some clean-up while I've still got moderator tools. (p.s. are you planning on nominating yourself?)
My reasoning for not merging was because the other post has 3 answers with >=10 votes and Jens' would be buried there, whereas here it has visibility
6:32 PM
Please give me a minute to look at both posts again.
Secondly, while it's a repro of that bigger post, I favour keeping this open, because it offers a completely new (and good) alternative to the plague that is PlotLegends
Generally, I don't vote to delete well written duplicates (especially ones with answers), because it serves as an entry point to Google searches
@R.M I need to look at this further, and I intend to return to it tomorrow. If you get the 20K users to undelete it in the mean time that's fine too. At the moment my opinion is that it should either be merged, deleted, or sufficiently differentiated to fully reopen the question. I'm not too comfortable with leaving important material in a closed question; [closed] usually denotes a thread that's not worth reading, at least for the general audience.
@Mr.Wizard We can't :) If a mod deletes it, it cannot be undeleted
6:39 PM
Do you agree with the title editing here? The original was bad, but the new one does not fit to the problem in my head
Q: Fast list elements position lookup

AndrewIn my code, I generate a list of integers called numlist. Here is an example numlist: numlist = Sort[Table[RandomInteger[{1, 100}], {3}]] which gives, for example, the output: {17, 74, 96} I would like to write a function generateFun that, using numlist as input, generates the following...

@R.M I do find that a valid point, and I have kept it in mind while making deletions today. I tried to check that the master duplicate was easy to find with searches in each case.
@R.M Nuts; really? I didn't know that. Even if it's not Locked?
Oh, @Mr.Wizard, you're here earlier than I expected
@Mr.Wizard Nope, cannot undelete. Ever.
@GraceNote Hello Grace Note.
@R.M Well in that case I guess further review is in order, and not just on this one. I hope other 20K users will flag as you did if they disagree with anything.
@Mr.Wizard Take your time, but I don't think many go through the recently deleted list
6:44 PM
@R.M Many ... is two
@Mr.Wizard If you want to review earlier deleted dupes, you might find closed:1 deleted:1 "possible duplicate" helpful in searching
@GraceNote Something on your mind?
@Mr.Wizard Well, since you're possibly out for more later, don't forget to post a nomination if you intend to run for elected moderator
@R.M Leonid & Heike :)
@GraceNote I have not decided yet. I hope that's OK. :-)
6:45 PM
@belisarius well, all 10k users can see it too :)
@R.M I meant 20K
Ah, yes. The groom is MIA
@Mr.Wizard Just want to make sure you're aware, because with you being out, the team was a bit worried about running the election "under your nose" so to speak
Hello @whuber :)
@R.M Hi!
6:50 PM
@GraceNote Thanks; I appreciate the consideration. While I have your attention, I'd like to know if the Team would consider increasing the number of moderator positions, assuming that they can be filled? For example I'd be happy to continue doing the job of the community will have me, but I'm not sure how much time I can dedicate to it right now. (continued)
@R.M Why is kguler self deleted answer in the review list for undeletion?
Verbeia, who entered a nomination, is well respected but also states that she wouldn't be able to give a lot of time to the job in the next couple of months. It seems to me that there a more than three qualified users here, and that it would only help to pick up the slack in down times to have more moderators.
If this is a possibility what is the correct avenue to pursue it?
@belisarius I don't know, someone might have accidentally clicked it. It would've had to be one of Leonid/Heike/me
I can't say it isn't a possibility, but I can't say that it's a likely one, either
@GraceNote If it's alright for me to ask, why?
6:53 PM
@R.M I don't remember that you can undelete sef deletions. Strange.
@Mr.Wizard Changing slots after it started is really mechanical messy is the simplest reason
@belisarius Yeah, it's a 20k privilege. You can try it out on SO
Probably never had to use it there, because most stuff that's deleted should stay deleted :P
@R.M Nah ... If someone wants his work obliterated, better leave it there
It's not unprecedented to have more than 3 on the very first election - we ran 4 slots on Skeptics, for example.
@GraceNote What about adding another position (or two) in a second election? For example, if I nominate myself, and should the community elect both Verbeia and me, there could be a problem. I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to avoid this problem, and yet put in my nomination.
6:56 PM
@R.M perhaps it's a measure against "user rage" ... a user that collide with something and opts to delete his entire contribution batch
@belisarius yeah, also sometimes users delete theirs in a hurry... I recently undeleted platomaniac's answer
@Mr.Wizard We will most likely run another election within a year, this will be additions to the mod team, not a change-over.
We've had one answer (WReach's, I think) fully undeleted by the community
And there's also the point that you can still perform the majority of moderator work without the diamond - the diamond is necessary for the needs that it exclusively handles
@R.M he was trying to emulate Socrates' books
6:58 PM
Jul 1 at 17:33, by R.M
Well, I think this is the first community undeletion of an answer :)
@R.M nice :D
@GraceNote Two questions: (1) Am I correct that only diamond moderators can handle and dismiss flags? (2) Supposing that after the moderators are elected, (and perhaps I am one of them) and nearly all the work is falling on one person or simply not being handled in a timely fashion, what would be the remedy?
Those were the lightning days... undeletion in 5 mins! There've been posts closed and nuked, all by users in 5-10 mins
@Mr.Wizard Flags specifically for moderator attention are only able to be handled by mods. The latter case is why we generally appoint additional moderators (and, if forced in our hand, cycle out actual slackers and not just "I'M SORRY BUT I JUST BIRTHED A CHILD INTO THIS WORLD SO I'M KINDA BUSY FOR A FEW WEEKS").
@GraceNote congrats :)
7:03 PM
But this would have to be that more people are needed - if only one person is acting because, say, there isn't enough volume of workload for all 3 to be occupied, then throwing more moderators won't help anything.
(I tend to read caps first)
@belisarius Huh??
@belisarius Thank you
SE has it all covered, I see
sex.se is missing
7:04 PM
@belisarius they had one, but it turned into a stag party
@belisarius Sec.se
@R.M I know. Predictable-
@GraceNote Not meaning to be egotistical as I don't know if the community would elect me or not, but I'm still trying to figure out if nominating myself will be helpful or hurtful given that I'm not sure what time I will or will not be able to commit this quarter. Can you (or anyone else reading) give me some advice?
@R.M Have you checked the Q title edition I linked a few minutes ago?
@Mr.Wizard Election is a long period job, we only kick you after 6 months of complete inaction, your observed mod workload isn't enough to warrant more than 3 elected and I think that unless you get 2 people with the exact same scheduling issue, they'll be able to hold the fort in your absence.
7:10 PM
Okay; thanks again.
You'll only be harmful if your absence will literally harm the site by leaving it unmonitored. Or if you turn corrupt, which I consider an unlikely prospect
@Mr.Wizard I've been following the conversation and can't quite figure out why the emphasis on appointing moderators only if they're willing to take it up as a more or less full time job. I don't see the issue with appointing 6, or even 10 moderators, if it helps lighten the load to a point that allows each of them to visit the site and do some moderation when they want to rather than as an obligation. I was a moderator on a discussion forum and it was not so much the workload but ...
So basically, if you think that when you are around you'll be helpful, you'll be helpful
This is a volunteer job, after all, not a full-time job.
... the constant obligation that quickly killed my enthusiasm. Eventually I stopped visiting altogether.
@OleksandrR. We don't want it to be a constant obligation
7:12 PM
@GraceNote the point is people have jobs already. They visit this site for their enjoyment in their free time. The less pressure placed on them and the more enjoyment they get out of that, the better, as I see it.
@OleksandrR. but a whole flock of mods doesn't seem right
@OleksandrR. Exactly. Which is why I don't think that "I might not be able to devote hours on end over the next few months" isn't a show-stopper. I had a full-time job when I was a moderator on Gaming and so I basically only pitched in less than an hour a day of "moderating duties".
@OleksandrR. Thanks for restating more eloquently what I was attempting to earlier. Apparently the opinion is that three is enough. Perhaps I have unreasonable expectations for the speed of handling flags or the number of visits/actions per day.
@belisarius Well I do admit 10 is pretty absurd for this site. Half that would cover all bases I think.
@Mr.Wizard yep. agree
@belisarius sorry, no. Reading back now
7:17 PM
@Mr.Wizard Three seems to have been sufficient so far, do you guys actually feel overworked?
@Mr.Wizard my POV is the number isn't important as long as each person is comfortable with the amount of work they have and will perform it not just dutifully but gladly. My experience of moderation is that the necessity to read every post simply because you are expected to rather than because you would have chosen to otherwise isn't conducive to enjoyment.
Plus, many hands make light work.
@GraceNote Not usually, no. There is only one instance that I am aware of, when J.M. was away, and the site seemed slow, I didn't visit much for a few days, maybe a week. (I checked in daily, but didn't actually spend much time on site.) I later found out that there had been quite a few flags during that time, all handled by Sjoerd, and he was feeling a bit worked as I recall.
@Mr.Wizard Mmhmm
@belisarius How about "Generating a position lookup function for an arbitrary list of integers"?
@R.M Much better!
7:24 PM
@GraceNote I need to go now, but I'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for entertaining my questions.
@Mr.Wizard No problem
Good day, y'all.
bye, Mr-
4 hours later…
11:15 PM
This one seems interesting
Q: Image interpolation from random pixles

C graphicsI would like to ask a question regarding single channel image interpolation. Single channel is chosen just for simplicity otherwise i m working on multiple channel images. Assume there is a single channel image with pure black background ( pixel intensity 0) on which there are some pixels with no...

For doing it in Mma, of course :)
11:29 PM
@belisarius Good night.
@GustavoBandeira Boas noites
Do I exist in $n$ nights? Where $n>1$?
Sure, ask Voltaire
OMG you were serious
11:32 PM
Do you know Greagroy Chaitin?
I've heard about him, but I never met him in person
I believe he is in Brazil now
I bought one of his book while I was19.
In search of Omega.
At the time, I understood -90%
Now I can understand ~1% =D
I remembered him because he's from your country
I think he was working in something related to complexity and DNA
but that is all I know about him
What do you do, Beli?
I am a consultant
hehe nice word
11:39 PM
For math? For mathematica?
doesn't say nothing
nop IT
Do you write papers?
@GustavoBandeira That's why he keeps asking you to reset your brain
"Have you tried taking your brain off and putting it back in again? Or just leaving it outside?"
@R.M toads can do THAT?
I thought they had no brains whatsoever
@GustavoBandeira not anymore
@belisarius Which is why we don't pal around with IT consultants... they're of no use to us
11:43 PM
@R.M I kinda made this process when I was 18 - I started to notice the flaws in what I knew. I went to the first step: Knowing that I don't know.
@R.M you are utterly right
no wait ... my pockets!
@belisarius What did you write about?
@belisarius Hot pockets?
@GustavoBandeira @GustavoBandeira not anymore
Sadia ... nice turkeys
11:47 PM
Their lasagna sucks.
I watching a documentary on infinity
an infinite documentary?
If I understood it right, he says that there is a last number and when we get to this last number, it goes to zero again.
They are already boring when short ..
@belisarius Yep, The universe will die and this documentary will keep playing.
@GustavoBandeira Did your read The Hitchicker's Guide to the Galaxy?
11:51 PM
Nope, I've heard about it - a friend told me a little about. Why?
@GustavoBandeira There is a "Restaurant at the end of the Universe" ... much alike your infinite documentary. Read it! You'll thank me till the end of your life
I swear
@belisarius My friend showed me the movie.
I don't remeber if I watched it all.
@GustavoBandeira The movie is not up to the book
not at all
@R.M Did you read it?
Is it short?
@GustavoBandeira just a very small quote
"However, no-one knows quite why it does this because it then invariably delivers a cupful of liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."
11:56 PM
This is the first result shown up when googling for it.
@GustavoBandeira No, it is a large book. And you will suffer to death when you finish it
02:00 - 08:0008:00 - 00:00

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