The Dojo - 2012-05-14

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user11126

2:42 PM

@sidran32 nice!

4:27 PM

@DavidHClements @MattChan Thanks! :)

1 hour later…

Martial Arts Meta

5:53 PM

0

Q: Tai Chi Week - A Martial Arts.SE Contest

I've been in touch with Katey from the CHAOS team about the proposed tai chi contest, and we have the go-ahead to run this contest. Here is an outline of the rules and how the contest will be run. Please feel free to share and promote this contest with others and have them participate on the site...

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Martial Arts Meta

6:47 PM

0

Q: Storing videos, playing videos

Could we ask SE for a video-playing plugin and someplace to store videos? At some point, talking about a particular movement becomes just a waste of virtual saliva, because anyone can one-up you and say "Oh blah blah blah more details blah blah blah", and before you know it you've actually locke...

feature-request

2 hours later…

9:15 PM

@stslavik My basis for claiming that the technique works is that there is no evidence of it working in a competition or conflict, i.e. it has only been shown to work in highly contrived demos.

It's also rather self-evidently pretend. The guy jumps.

David H. Clements

As Miller likes to point out: It's important not to mistake intensity with truth.

I'm not familiar with Miller, who is he?

David H. Clements

Some of his better known works are Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence, Sudden Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected, and Drills: Training For Sudden Violence. He worked for years in maximum security corrections and other related fields.

Aha, yes, have heard of that work. What does he mean by those terms in the context of this statement?

@DaveLiepmann Are you familiar with Paul Ekman?

David H. Clements

9:24 PM

Short version: chirontraining.blogspot.com/2011/10/values-in-sparring.html

I may have read Paul Ekman's work, but don't know the name. Facial expressions?

David H, I haven't read the full article yet, but I can say that I'm fairly certain disagree strongly with the thesis.

If you're not, he's the guy who went to Papua New Guinea and proved that Bushmen who've never before been exposed to outsiders exhibit the same facial expressions and responses to emotional stimulus as civilized westerners.

It's something called the Universality of Emotion

Particularly if we're going to take its conclusion to mean "<compliant Japanese wristlocking art> is better training for self-defense than X" for nearly any value of X

or "<wristlocky Daitoryu trick> is actually awesome for self-defense"

@stslavik Right, yes, I'm familiar with that line of work.

Anyhow, in Telling Lies, he talks about investigating micro expressions – the fleeting muscle spasms that take over the body despite our best intentions... These aren't limited to the face, but also exhibit themselves in manipulator gestures.

> It's also rather self-evidently pretend. The guy jumps.

What you saw is the guy's legs tense and lift his body.

What you didn't see is the internal reasoning.

Aha, yes.

His wrist hurt so he did ukemi

I'm familiar with such training

9:29 PM

Ekman teaches us that you can see the emotion being felt, but you have to investigate the why without exhibiting your own biases

I agree, he jumped because his wrist hurt.

David H. Clements

It's not quite that simple.

Many people exhibit strong disbelief about mechanical and pain compliance because internal to themselves they do not feel the same pain or pressure under similar experienced circumstances.

Is it materially different? I'm trying to agree in shorthand.

Yes, stslavik, I've been kotegaeshi'd and nikkyo'd and so on. I trained compliant jointlocks for years.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not disagreeing with you; that student may have been over-zealous, and Daito-ryu Roppokai is not the most well respected art.

But there are other examples on that DVD that are far better, and having practiced in aikido, systema ryabko, and bujinkan ninpo taijutsu I recognize the principles at play, and a big part is psychology

9:34 PM

is this the part where you agree, "yes, psychology is part of it, but not all"?

@DaveLiepmann I already stated as such in my answer to Trevoke's question

So...?

So what?

I don't understand

So we don't disagree that we agree on that part, but we agree that we disagree on the rest of the technique, right?

I guess I was expecting a description of how the technique is effective, or an argument in favor of training compliant wristlocks in general

Or a description of the usefulness of that technique as a basis for other techniques, or for learning principles or body mechanics, or somesuch

Then ask that question. We're askers and answerers, not psychics. We can't know your expectations unless you tell us what they are! :D

9:42 PM

Sigh...no, I'm saying that your entire series of statements seemed prepatory, since we all knew that we agreed on the psychological basis of the technique

and if there's nothing beyond that, there's no point in talking, and my answer is golden

There is clearly a misunderstanding: Psychology is one small part of the overall. You're saying it's the end-all and be-all.

Yep

Which is why I was expecting you to present some evidence of your position.

instead of reiterate our points of agreement

We're not going to convince each other. Later.

Alright. Let's exclude psychology then. We're left with balance (the uke's weight is shifted forward; if he weren't grabbing tori's wrists, he'd fall over). By shifting his hands up, the tori locks the individual joints of the wrist, elbows, and shoulders into place, bracing them against uke's downward weight.

For uke to escape this, he'd have to move upward, causing him to rise.

Of course, he'd have to lift his whole body faster than tori could raise his hands.

Distance between the brain and the feet being further than the brain to the arms being nearly double, this is already a losing proposition

Once the hands are up, tori can direct the direction of uke's fall by shifting him sideways before removing support (the hands)

Which of course, means that tori was a complete fraud and the technique would never work. At all. Not even in the video. Under those controlled circumstances. Like any other technique being taught. Ever. Even in the magical world of MMA.

Thank you Cleveland! GOOD NIGHT!

David H. Clements

-.-

While I'm comfortable taking the role of MMA bogeyman, what you describe sounds like a parlor trick, not a martial technique.

Particularly since when I (for some contrived reason) double-wrist-grab someone, them lifting their hands is unlikely to lock, um, any of my joints, unless I'm trained to do so.

David H. Clements

10:00 PM

Unless you are creating a cripple or a corpse, every drill is flawed, but that doesn't mean it is useless.

or as Box said: All models are wrong, but some are useful.

While that's trivially true, there's a substantial difference between randori, which provably increases ones ability to osotogari someone's head into the pavement or choke fully resisting opponents unconscious, and a hand-flick predicated on uke's total unbalance and frankly unbelievable predilection to entanglement

In the context of beating people up, the technique is 100% parlor trick.

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