Not a bar, but plays one on TV

BESW

00:42

A dog with a "guilty" look, sits next to a knocked-over gold vessel c. 200 B.C. http://antiquities.bibalex.org/Collection/Detail.aspx?lang=fr&a=859 Mosaic fou… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/879807302626418688

Tweeted by ticiaverveer on June 27, 2017 at 9:03 PM

BESW

01:03

One big misconception about learning is that we are only meant to acquire new knowledge but we should also be ready to unlearn too

Tweeted by TouchMyPoly on June 27, 2017 at 11:25 PM in reply to TouchMyPoly

Now You Can Download 2,500 Japanese Woodblock Prints from the Library of Congress.

KorvinStarmast

12:34

@Magician It exists. It is. It's a game of a particular form and style. It's been published since 1974, and played for longer than that. In a lot of ways, Arneson's synthesis of Braunstein and all the other things that when into his notebook that became Blackmoor is a new kind of game and absolutely a new kind of play experience.

To assert otherwise is to make a number of errors.

BESW

@KorvinStarmast Perhaps you're thinking that Magician is talking about the singular product, rather than the multivarious experiences across individual tables?

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Nope. I said it doesn't exist. Or, to unpack it, it's too vague a concept to be of any use. People play entirely different games using the same rules It exists. It's not too vague. That people have different play experiences in various campaigns is a feature, not a bug. Someone seems misunderstand the form of game that it is. To then reason that "it does not exist" is to miss the point entirely.

BESW

Did he say "bug"?

You're putting an awful lot into his mouth, I think, starting with the idea that he's making the kind of statement which can be criticized as pseudo-logic. Not all inaccurate things are that kind of inaccurate.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I think you need to understand what an idiomatic phrase is. "It's not a bug it's a feature" fits into that category. The statement "D&D does not exist" is false.

NautArch

I'm not sure that just because a system allows for different ways of playing it means it doesn't exist as a singular thing.

BESW

12:41

@KorvinStarmast Then let me re-phrase: I don't see him making a criticism of D&D in that article. I don't know where you're getting that.

It feels like I'm reading some parallel dimension version of Magician's blog from the one you're seeing.

KorvinStarmast

@eimyr I think I'll go back to Arneson's pithy remark: the rules lawyers are the enemy. Your "well codified" is a flag: it is the kind of thinking that contributes to missing the point.

@BESW I am not sure what the point of the musing was on the blog, but I think you are right in that it wasn't a criticism per se of the game that exists that is called D&D. I was going to use the term esoteric, but I don't think that's the right term.

BESW

← 11 messages moved from RPG General Chat

eimyr

@KorvinStarmast I never read Arneson. Or D&D for that matter. I have no part in this discussion, even though I agree with the general notion as presented by Magician.

BESW

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

KorvinStarmast

@eimyr Finding anything Arneson wrote down can be difficult: not quite as organized as his co-author.

eimyr

12:48

@KorvinStarmast I'm just not interested.

KorvinStarmast

@eimyr OK, then I guess we are done here. You posted a link to something you found interesting, I found the contents uninspiring, and that cited collection of sentences risible at best, crafted to lead to a false assertion. The world continues to turn.

eimyr

@KorvinStarmast I disagree, but I don't care about convincing you in the slightest.

KorvinStarmast

@eimyr We agree to disagree. That is satisfactory.

eimyr

@KorvinStarmast After all, Sturgeon's Law, right?

KorvinStarmast

Indeed. We appear to have been contributors to its never ending proof.

Papayaman1000

16:49

So my PC wanted to play as Undyne from Undertale. dandwiki already has a homebrew for this exact purpose, but I'd rather not touch that with a 10-foot pole.

So I developed this:

Undine PC Race

Elf Subrace

Language - In addition to Common and Elven, you also know Aquan.

Amphibious - You can breathe water as if it was air; in addition, you have a
swim speed equal to your walking speed, and gain Advantage in aquatic combat
versus non-aquatic creatures.

Weapon proficiency - You have proficiency with polearms, including spears,
tridents, halberds, and glaives.

Ability Score Increase - Underwater locomotion requires much more full-body
strength than surface movement. +1 Strength.

I used the High Elf subrace as a basis for balance

High Elves are more adaptable, but Undines are much more potent where they can specialize

nitsua60

@Papayaman1000 did you also look at Water Genasi (Elemental Evil Player's Companion race)?

doppelgreener

@Papayaman1000 Game & edition! :)

Papayaman1000

5e

nitsua60

Most of it looks pretty fair, but the Advantage in aquatic combat bit concerns me.

Papayaman1000

@nitsua60 I was thinking about that, but I get the feeling that "just" amphibiousness doesn't have quite enough oomph

Adam

16:58

@nitsua60 @Papayaman1000 or the Triton from Volo's Guide to Monsters

nitsua60

Maybe a swim speed of 40' then? The Water Genasi get a racial cantrip, shape water.

Papayaman1000

I mean, if it was a fly speed than absolutely, but water is much more situational

doppelgreener

What about a once-per-combat active ability, or a more limited set of things you get the advantage for doing underwater?

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener I was thinking on rolls-to-hit in aquatic melee

nitsua60

I don't know Undine at all: what feel/experience are you shooting for?

doppelgreener

16:58

like "one per combat while underwater, you can gain advantage on an action performed against a non-aquatic creature"

Papayaman1000

@nitsua60 Undyne is a fairly murderous anime fishperson who throws spears and suplexes boulders for no real reason

doppelgreener

or whatever the encounter wording template is, since you'd probably want to be able to use that outside combat too

godskook

Would it help to make "advantage on combat vs. non-aquatic" be a racial feat?

Or does 5e eschew such things?

Papayaman1000

@godskook That's kinda what I'm doing here

nitsua60

Probably worth looking at the Triton then. (I'm away from Volo, but could get at it in a couple of hours.)

Papayaman1000

17:00

@nitsua60 I've got Volo right here

lemme check

nitsua60

IIRC the Triton's more martially-focused than the Genasi're

godskook

@Papayaman1000, it looks like you're adding it to the race's ability set, such that every single member of this race has this feature. I was suggesting peeling it off into an optional feat members of this race had access to, but had to spend a normal feat-slot for.

Papayaman1000

@nitsua60 That's actually almost perfect

Like wow

nitsua60

@doppelgreener 5e's got "when initiative is rolled" or "once per long rest" in that space. Not that those are without their problems.

It was @Adam's good call; at my office I'd forgotten about anything I didn't have on .pdf =(

Papayaman1000

@nitsua60 I scanned all my sourcebooks

That's why I'm able to post screencaps of pages sometimes

nitsua60

17:04

I'm behind on that project--still don't have Volo or Yawn on the digital bookshelf.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 mannnn. why didn't they just keep the notion of encounter powers.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener merp?

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener Thatwas one of the few things 4e did well was the power system

godskook

@doppelgreener, especially surprising considering 3.5 even had it, although in a more limited fashion. Probably because that was one of the objections to 4e?

nitsua60

Not Middle Earth Role Playing. Just that "merp" is literally the sound I made when I thought about answering that question =)

Papayaman1000

17:05

I mean it was pretty messy for some things, but it was far from a bad idea

godskook

@Papayaman1000, eh? What was that @?

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 D&D 5e implemented a lot of things in D&D 4e but changed them so as to avoid any visible connections. sort of cutting off their nose to spite their face. almost-encounter powers was one of those things they implemented; another was the standard/move/minor action formula but as action / move / bonus action (which is just confusing)

implementing encounter powers would let them consistently codify around what point you can use those in and out of combat

NautArch

I think there may have been a change from encounter to short rest? maybe?

godskook

@doppelgreener, that's the standard/move/swift formula from 3.5?

nitsua60

@doppelgreener (oh, dear. I fell down a rabbit hole yesterday and read 24 pp. of forum posts on why bonus actions are/aren't confusing. I'm not sure I'm ready to think about that again....)

doppelgreener

17:07

i just find it a bit of a verbiage fault that they have three types of actions and called one of them the action

nitsua60

@NautArch Certainly, given that almost nothing resets on initiative, SR is basically the high-frequency ability.

doppelgreener

ok but on the merguy, gaining advantage on one move after initiative or once between rests sounds like it would be a useful constraint.

godskook

@doppelgreener I can agree to that!

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener I'll probably focus on the character's aversion to dying in that case

NautArch

@doppelgreener so instead of always-on advantage against non-aquatics, they get advantage on first attack 1/SR?

doppelgreener

17:10

@Papayaman1000 aversion to dying is generally very useful

nitsua60

@doppelgreener I'm the same way, but more so with attack and Attack. I almost wish they'd just called Attack "Murder."

> Extra Attack. Beginning at 5th level you can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Murder action on your turn....

doppelgreener

@NautArch advantage on one roll the player says they want advantage on

@nitsua60 LOL

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener Something along the lines of being able to remain conscious into negative HP or just an auto-succeed on a stabilize roll

NautArch

@doppelgreener nice, that's better :)

godskook

@nitsua60, let's not contribute to the murder-hobo phenomenon :P

Papayaman1000

17:11

Either would fit, really

nitsua60

@NautArch That's basically just a Luck die.

doppelgreener

kinda like an automatic inspiration point i guess, now that i think about it

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener "Upon entering water, you gain Inspiration. You lose Inspiration whenever you leave water."

nitsua60

@godskook I'm trying, man

Papayaman1000

Read: the worst possible way to word that

nitsua60

17:13

@doppelgreener Inspiration's a little different in that you can only ever have 1 inspiration.

Adam

@Papayaman1000 There was an unearthed arcana barbarian path I think where that was a thing. If you were raging and dropped to 0 hp, you would remain conscious until the rage ended, or you died. You had to make death saves as usual.

NautArch

I wouldn't replace the advantage mechanic with inspiration.

Papayaman1000

@Adam That sounds PERFECT

NautArch

Or Relentless Rage (PHB, 49) If you drop to 0 hit points
while you’re raging and don’t die outright, you can make
a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you succeed, you
drop to 1 hit point instead.
Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC
increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the
DC resets to 10.

Papayaman1000

Like, I know most people here aren't versed with Undertale, but that's basically what happens if you try to kill Undyne

@NautArch Yes.

YES.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Adam

17:15

@Papayaman1000 Found it path of the zealot lvl 14: rage beyond death

>Beginning at 14th level, the divine power that fuels
your rage allows you to shrug off fatal blows.
While raging, having 0 hit points doesn’t knock
you unconscious. You still must make death saving
throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking
damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you
would die due to failing death saving throws, you
don’t die until your rage ends

Papayaman1000

Now to adapt that for someone who's probably playing a Ftr/Drd

nitsua60

> Flurry of Murderous Blows. Immediately after you take the Murder action on your turn you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. #MoMurderMoMonks

doppelgreener

@Papayaman1000 "Whenever someone groans at the prospect of having to go underwater, you gain 1 inspiration. Never, ever, ever tell the other players about this feature -- if you do, you lose this feature."

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener Perfect.

XD

Adam

@doppelgreener 1 inspiration is redundant. You can't have more than 1 :p Unless you're letting merguy have multiple inspiration as a racial feature

Papayaman1000

17:18

Meanwhile, my other player:
"Can I have a Betta Fish familiar"
"It won't like having to live in a cup"
"Can I have a Giant Space Hamster familiar"
"No, because Giant Hamsters are crazy strong"

doppelgreener

@Adam [edits to say '2 inspiration' so as to start arguments ... that the player can still never mention this feature in]

Papayaman1000

"Can I have an Intellect Devourer familiar"
"No, unless you're a Mind Flayer."
"Can I--"
"NO."

NautArch

First rule of Inspiration Club is Don't Talk About Inspiration Club

Papayaman1000

@NautArch First rule of Don't Talk About Inspiration Club is tautological and/or titular.

doppelgreener

@Papayaman1000 Well, he could have an intellect devourer familiar. Briefly. And then reroll a new character.

2

NautArch

17:20

@doppelgreener We'll call it...@adam.

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener That... would be really jerkish to someone just starting RPGs in general, but y'know what? If he's gonna pull everything from Baldur's Gate to be OP, then he gets Baldur's Gate consequences.

doppelgreener

> GM: You all meet in a bar.
Adam: Awesome. I order a bowl of meat for my intellect devourer pet.
GM: It's nowhere to be seen...
Adam: What!?
GM: How concerning.
Other players: [draw weapons]

Papayaman1000

@doppelgreener "We laughed, the bartender laughed, the table laughed, we killed the table. Good times."

nitsua60

@Adam Wait a minute, we've already got a 5e template for this:

> Aquatic Inspiration. When you roll for initiative underwater, you gain 1 Aquatic Inspiration die. You can never have more than 1 Aquatic Inspiration die. You lose this die if you spend more than 1 round out of water.

Adam

@nitsua60 See, that's another terminology issue. Inspiration, Bardic Inspiration, and Aquatic Inspiration are all different things

nitsua60

17:24

@Adam Not a problem: I don't allow bards.

Voila! No Bardic Inspiration!

Papayaman1000

Idea: Forget the inspiration idea, instead allow battle where HP loss would render unconscious, go about my day. Voila!

Adam

@Papayaman1000 New idea: a tavern that where all of the tables and bar-tops are mimics. The mimics eat the crumbs and scraps of food left over by "adventurers", but are otherwise docile

Papayaman1000

"We play a game of Open Knives."
[table scoots away hastily]

For reference, Open Knives is Spoons, but with open knives.

Very fun.

They are also jammed into the table.

Adam

@doppelgreener Such a good little intellect devourer! Devouring intellects, just like I trained him to!

Papayaman1000

Gave my player the Doppengreener responses to the intellect devourer. "On second thought..."

Let's see where this goes.

It isn't. Is he finally content with waiting until Saturday so I can hold the freaking Session 0?!

It's makin' like it's rainin' men HALLELUJAH!

So, final idea: Instead of Aquatic Inspiration, I'm just gonna let the character keep fighting while at Unconscious-level HP, with the trade-off that they still have to roll stabilization but with an additional 5 DC.

That would be what best matches the character in question, in my opinion.

NautArch

17:36

@nitsua60 My bard takes offense.

Casts Heat Mod-el.

Papayaman1000

Ah. It went. Now they're switching from Drow to Goliath. Now I get to build all my dungeons around a Large creature!

nitsua60

@NautArch I don't hear them--they're not at my table =)

Papayaman1000

"This is where the hamster comes in."

nitsua60

@Papayaman1000 There you go.

Papayaman1000

nonononononONONONONOONO_NOOOOO_

@nitsua60 joy

Another thing to fit the character (though I'm probably not allowing it for more than one character, and even now because the party only has 3 players):

> If you lose more than half your HP in one hit, you may choose to
go into an incredibly powerful state. You gain all the benefits of a Long Rest
and double the stat of your choice; however, you may no longer receive healing
from any source. Upon death, your body disintegrates.

Sort of a final gambit. Hope you have a very powerful cleric if you want to get that character back.

(The healing block would apply *after* the long rest benefits.)

Adam

17:53

@Papayaman1000 So you get hit super hard, heal it all back up, and double up a stat. For how long exactly would this last? And how often could you do it?

Papayaman1000

@Adam You can do it once. It lasts until you die. You can do it once per greater revive.

Adam

what about temporary hitpoints?

Papayaman1000

None.

Adam

None as in you also can't gain temporary hit points, or none as in you don't get any from the form itself?

Papayaman1000

Both.

Adam

17:59

Temp hp isn't healing, so you should spell that out in the ability as well to avoid ambiguity.

NautArch

Can you get hp after a long rest? Or is this forever until you die?

Papayaman1000

@NautArch The latter.

Adam

Talking only through personal experience, super powerful buffs like those don't really make for compelling class features. I think class features should be able to be used more than once, and if they can only be used once, then you have to make them stupidly powerful to compensate for not getting anything while everybody else gets a smaller feature that they can use more frequently

Same kind of thing applies to racial features too

Stuff like that, I think, is much better suited to a magic item or some other external resource. That way, there is some tension on "when should I use this thing" and you still get the racial/class features to keep up with everyone else.

Papayaman1000

18:23

@Adam The thing is, they already do get a normal class feature. The super-powerful buff is more an auxilary thing.

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV