Vedanta and Philosophy

Pandya

1:39 AM

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya It's not completely accurate, but it's a good chart.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan @SreeCharan @Yogi From Vishishtadvaita Guru Parampara, I found that Namalwar lived during 6-8th century. Now we know that Adi Shankaracharya lived during 8-9th Century. So, I think Nammalwar or any other alwars might be contemporary. And/or Nathamuni (9th Century) might know about Adi Shankaracharya or each other. Is there any information regarding their meeting or comments to each other works available/known?

@KeshavSrinivasan Yes.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya For instance, Smriti Prasthana refers to the Bhagavad Gita, not to Kalpa Sutras. Kalpa Sutras aren't even Smriti, although Dharma Sutras are.

@Pandya There's two kinds of dating, there's dating by Western Indologists and there's the traditional Sri Vaishnava dating. In the traditional Sri Vaishnava dating, Nammalwar was born in 3102 BC, 45 days after Krishna departed the Earth.

@Pandya In any case, some people say that Adi Shankaracharya was living in the Chera empire at the time that Kulasekhara Alwar was the emperor of the Chera empire.

Pandya

1:54 AM

@KeshavSrinivasan oh! ok. I want to know dating of Nathamuni according to Vaishnava tradition.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya By the way, Adi Shankaracharya living under Kulasekhara Alwar's rule would only work if Western dating is correct.

Pandya

What is the traditional dating of Adi Shankaracharya? /cc @Tezz @TheDestroyer

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Well, that is its own can of worms. I think Sringeri Matham believes Adi Shankaracharya lived in BC times. Whereas Western dating places Adi Shankaracharya at the 8th century AD.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan I thought if it was mentioned in Shankara Digvijaya.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya In any case, we don't have any surviving philosophical of Nathamuni. But we have surviving works of Nathamuni's grandson Yamunacharya, and he discusses Adi Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashya.

@Pandya Nathamuni did write philosophical works: the Yoga Rahasya, the Nyaya Tattva, and the Purusha Nirnaya. But they're all lost.

Pandya

2:05 AM

Oh! I'm actually interested when Nathamuni compiled Naalayira Divya Prabandham.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Hmm, Wikipedia says "Nathamuni (Named by parents as Aranganathan) is generally considered to have been born in 824 AD and to have died in 924 AD. An alternative view is that he was born in 582 AD and died in 922 AD. Yet another view is that Nathamuni was born at Viranarayana Puram sometime shortly after 907 AD and flourished in the 10th century."

@Pandya One data point is that Nathamuni lived after the time of all the Alwars, at a time when almost all the Alwars' poems were lost.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan Btw, if we talk about Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya, I think NathaMuni or Yamunacharya can be considered as founder/expander right? (I don't know much about UyyakkoNDaar or Rama Misra though)

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Yeah, Nathamuni is the founder of the Sri Vaishnava sect, although the Parampara goes all the way back to Vishnu.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan Ok. Thanks! I think it may be research topic. Inform/tell me when you find traditional dating of him.

@KeshavSrinivasan Yes.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Concerning Uyyakondar, he's the shishya of Nathamuni I told you about who refused to learn the Yoga Rahasya.

Jan 12 at 15:40, by Keshav Srinivasan

@SreeCharan You see, Nathamuni wrote a work called the Yoga Rahasya, dealing with the secret methods of meditating upon Vishnu in order to attain Moksha. Nathamuni offered to teach the Yoga Rahasya to his chief disciple Uyyakondar, but Uyyakondar refused to learn it, saying "When there is a corpse how can there be a marriage?" What that means is "When there are so many people suffering in Samsara, how can I just meditate upon Vishnu and attain Moksha by myself?"

@Pandya Uyyakondar's Sanskrit name is Pundarikaksha, by the way.

Pandya

2:22 AM

@KeshavSrinivasan Yes:

Nathamuni & Yoga Rahasya

Jan 12 at 15:19, 45 minutes total – 17 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Jan 12 at 16:17 by Pandya

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Concerning Rama Mishra, whose Tamil name is Manakkal Nambi, he was he one who convinced Yamunacharya, who had been living as a king, to join the Sri Vaishnava Sampradayam.

@Pandya We have no surviving philosophical works from Nathamuni, Uyyakondar, and Manakial Nambi. Yamunacharya is the first one we have surviving philosophical works from. But Nathamuni was the one who developed the philosophy of Visistadvaita.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan I know they're connected to Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya, actually I don't know their contributions/works that's why I moved on Yamunacharya from NathaMuni

@KeshavSrinivasan Ok. Yes, I think we wouldn't have Alwars works without NathaMuni!

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Yes, in the time of Nammalwar there were only two poems left: Nammalwar's poem Aravamudhe and Madhurakavi Alwar's poem Kanninun Sirithambu.

@Pandya By the way, the only surviving words of Nathamuni, Uyyakondar, and Manakkal Nambi are the Taniyans or invocatory verses composed by them embedded in the Naalayira Divya Prabandham.

@Pandya I just found a Sri Vaishnava site that says "Nathamuni was born in Kaliyuga 3925 in the Tamil year Sobakiruthu (823 AD) in the 7th day of Aani, in the star of Anusham, under Sadamarshana Gothra, for the Eswara Battar couple at Kattumannar Koil (Veeranarayanapuram) which has the famous big Veeranarayana (called as Veeranam)Lake." srirangapankajam.com/archives-nadamunigal

@Pandya And now I found another Sri Vaishnava site that says "Nathamuni was born at Veera Narayana Puram near Kaatumannar Koil, in the year 584 BCE.His other names were Shadamarshana Kula thilakar and Sottai Kulathtu Arasar.his birth star is Anusham and born in the month of Aani.He was great devotee of Narayana and Yogi too." srivaishnavam.com/acharya.html

Pandya

2:40 AM

@KeshavSrinivasan Thanks for the information as usual (I think I may not have much true information of Sri Vaishnava & Vishishtadvaita without you like we wouldn't have Alwars work without NathaMnuni!) I've some work. will back later. Good Night for you. :)

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Haha

Keshav Srinivasan

3:54 AM

@Tezz I just posted a question about that astronomical work I mentioned earlier:

1

Q: What is the Kanya region of Bharatavarsha, identified as the only residence of the four castes?

Lalla's Shishyavriddhida Tantra is a Hindu astronomical work dating to the 8th century. In this excerpt from the Shishyavriddhida Tantra, Lalla describes the geography of Bharatavarsha, i.e. the Indian subcontinent: There are (nine) parts of (the country of Bharata), viz., Aindra, Kaseru, Ta...

anuvaramban

5:32 AM

@KeshavSrinivasan I agree that in context of the question and the answer, they talk about jivAtma in samsara. Can you clarify in the general case whether being in samsara is the natural state of jivAtma, cos that's what that sounded like.

@KeshavSrinivasan I'm basically trying to understand the qualification of "natural state" you mention in the translation of the riddle.

Sree Charan

@anuvaramban This means that if the Jeeva (life which is eternal) is born into the body, which is lifeless, what will it experience and where will it live?

This is the question.

anuvaramban

@SreeCharan I know about the riddle and its answer. I'm trying to understand why Keshav used the words natural state in his answer which implies samsara is natural state of a jivAtma.

Sree Charan

13 hours ago, by anuvaramban

Apr 17 at 14:58, by Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya The real meaning of the riddle is "If a Jiva dwells in Samsara, what will it experience and where will it reside." And Nammalwar's answer means "In its natural state it will experience the fruits of Samsara and it will continue to reside in Samsara forever." That is the necessity for Sharanagati.

Yeah. the real answer is " if the Jeeva is a realized soul, it will conte
mplate on the Paramatma and will live in this divine consciousness. If not, it will endure the fruits of good and bad Karma that results from its actions born out of sensory perceptions and will remain caught in the cycle of births and deaths."

anuvaramban

6:04 AM

@SreeCharan What is natural state for jivAtma? I would think it is contemplation of Paramatma not Samsara.

Sree Charan

@anuvaramban It could mean both. If the jiva is realised soul, then it will stay in that consciousness. If not, it will tend to live in Samsara.

anuvaramban

@SreeCharan so these are the two possible states correct?

Sree Charan

@anuvaramban yes.

anuvaramban

@SreeCharan And both are natural states?

Sree Charan

Why did the natural state come here?

anuvaramban

6:12 AM

Apr 17 at 14:58, by Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya The real meaning of the riddle is "If a Jiva dwells in Samsara, what will it experience and where will it reside." And Nammalwar's answer means "In its natural state it will experience the fruits of Samsara and it will continue to reside in Samsara forever." That is the necessity for Sharanagati.

Tezz

7:07 AM

@Pandya is the above clear?...

Yogi

@Pandya That dating is wrong, they just date things randomly. Swami Sadhgopan(Nammalwar) was born after commencement of kaliyuga within some 16-17 years.

@Pandya I posted a question that you might be of some interest to you hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/18064/… @SreeCharan @KeshavSrinivasan @anuvaramban(I expect answer from you, although I know the answer)

The Destroyer

7:23 AM

@Yogi Either remove Vada for Advaita or add it to VA also.

@Yogi Monoism is not Advaita.

Advaita means non dual which is not same as Monoism.

Sree Charan

Monism

Monism is the view that attributes oneness or singleness (Greek:μόνος) to a concept (e.g., existence). Substance monism is the philosophical view that a variety of existing things can be explained in terms of a single reality or substance. Another definition states that all existing things go back to a source that is distinct from them (e.g., in Neoplatonism everything is derived from The One). This is often termed priority monism, and is the view that only one thing is ontologically basic or prior to everything else. Another distinction is the difference between substance and existence monism...

The Destroyer

@SreeCharan That's what everyone thinks. If Monoism and non dual are same, why it is called A "dviteeyam". A"dvaita" = Non dual.

Sree Charan

@TheDestroyer See vedanta section of the above article.

It is said as Monism only.

The Destroyer

@SreeCharan that is English men understanding. They are not exactly 100% same.

If it is monism, it should Ekamatveyam, not A"dviteeyam".

Sree Charan

7:40 AM

Adviteeya means not second to anything or no existence of other entity.

The Destroyer

@SreeCharan Important verse for Advaita is Chandogya Upanishad 5.2.1 which says ekamevadvitiyam. So, in strict sense they are not same.

Adi Shankara says

"By the words 'One only' is meant that there was nothing else coming under the catergory of Its product. By the words 'without a second' this is meant: As in the case of pot, etc. some other efficient causes like potters and others, who are different from earth etc. into pot etc. are seen, similarily (here) also there arises the possibility of having some other second thing which is different from Existence, and yet is a cause associated with Existence. This is being denied by the phase, 'without a second (advitiyam)'. So, 'without a second' means that It (Existence) has …

Yogi

@TheDestroyer Sorry I didn't get any message notification.

The Destroyer

@Yogi It's ok. No need for any sorry.

Yogi

@TheDestroyer I just made a clarification...no need to be cold blooded. I believe in VA so the other schools are merely Vada for me because Vada means debatable.

The Destroyer

@Yogi Yeah. But given that Hinduism is vast and many users follow different philosophies, it not good to call Advaita a vada on public forum. However, you can believe it personally.

Yogi

7:53 AM

@TheDestroyer Okay

Keshav Srinivasan

2:35 PM

@anuvaramban I think you're reading too much into my words "natural state". I just meant "by default". The Jiva has been in Samsara for infinitely many past births, and in the absence of Sharanagati it will continue to live in Samsara for ever by default.

@anuvaramban I didn't mean that the essential nature of the Jiva was to live in Samsara. Certainly the essential nature of a Jiva is to be in a Sesha-Seshi relationship with Sriman Narayana.

Pandya

2:57 PM

@Tezz I have that pdf, I was looking for Sanskrit text.

@Yogi Related:

5

Q: What are the views of Vishishtadvaita on Nirguna Brahman?

According to Advaita, Para Brahman (परब्रह्म) is Nirguna Brahman (निर्गुण ब्रह्म)[1] [2] but I've found that Vishishtadvaitis don't believe in Nirguna Brahman. So, let me ask: What are the views of Vishishtadvaita on Nirguna Brahman? If Vishsitadvaita do not believe in Nirguna Brahman, then ...

brahman vishishtadvaita ramanuja

Keshav Srinivasan

3:29 PM

@Tezz @Rickross @RakeshJoshi I just posted a question about the Matrika Bheda Tantra:

0

Q: What scriptures describe fire eclipses?

Just like Vaishnavas follow Pancharatra Agamas and Shaivites follow Shaiva Agamas, Shakta follow Shakta Agamas, aka Shakta Tantras. (I discuss an exception that proves the rule here.) One such Shakta Agama is the Matrikabheda Tantra. In this excerpt from the Matrikabheda Tantra, Shiva tells Parv...

mythology agamas tantra shaktism eclipse

Rakesh Joshi

@KeshavSrinivasan why these 3-4 names are mentioned each time? isnt it clear that vedanta and these agamas are quite opposite.

Keshav Srinivasan

@RakeshJoshi I just tag people who I think would be interested in a particular question.

Rakesh Joshi

@KeshavSrinivasan it will create only contradictions ..

Keshav Srinivasan

@RakeshJoshi In any case, Vedanta and Agamas need not contradict each other. As a Sri Vaishnava I belong to the Vedanta school, but I also believe in the Pancharatra Agamas.

Rakesh Joshi

but those who follow sankara advaita will contradict with shakta/shaivagamas.

Keshav Srinivasan

3:41 PM

@RakeshJoshi Well, Adi Shankaracharya criticized both Shaiva Agamas and Pancharatra Agamas, but other Advaitins are followers of Agamas.

Rakesh Joshi

so if you ask to advaitins how will they make a common ground of these.. so better to avoid .

Keshav Srinivasan

@RakeshJoshi In fact nowadays the number of Shaiva Siddhantins and Kashmiri Shaivites in the world are extremely tiny. The vast majority of followers of Shaiva and Shakta Agamas today are Advaitins.

Rakesh Joshi

so ??

Keshav Srinivasan

@RakeshJoshi So I'm saying that it's not necessarily true that "those who follow sankara advaita will contradict with shakta/shaivagamas."

Pandya

4:39 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan Btw, do a Samradaya need to follow at least one agama?

Also, Are Agamas essential in some rituals (Aren't Brahmana Grantha sufficient)? @TheDestroyer

Feb 9 at 16:16, by The Destroyer

@Pandya agamas are used in temple worship only.

Feb 9 at 16:42, by The Destroyer

@Pandya that's really sad. How do people do Prana Pratishta or build a temple?

But

in Agama and Tantra, Mar 26 at 14:25, by Pandya

> The Tantras, as we have said, represent the Vedic rituals in a modified form; and before any one jumps into the most absurd conclusions about them, I will advise him to read the Tantras in conjunction with the Brahmanas, especially the Adhvaryu portion. And most of the Mantras, used in the Tantras, will be found taken verbatim from their Brahmanas. As to their influence, apart from the Shrauta and Smârta rituals, all the forms of the rituals in vogue from the Himalayas to the Comorin have been taken from the Tantras, and they direct the worship of the Shâkta, or Shaiva, or Vaishnava, and …

@Aks Namaste!

Keshav Srinivasan

4:58 PM

@Pandya Are you talking about Vaishnava Sampradayams? All four Vaishnava Sampradayams follow Pancharatra Agamas.

@Pandya Yes, they are essential for some rituals, like idol worship for instance.

@Pandya The Brahmanas mainly focus on Yagnas, whereas Agamas focus on more devotional forms of worship.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan I don't mean explicitly Vaishnava Sampradaya, I mean general.

@KeshavSrinivasan ok. Upto now, I thought Agamas may be optional.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya Are you just asking whether all Hindus follow Agamas? The Purva Mimamsa school didn't believe in Agamas, for instance.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan Yes, I'm asking something like that.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Pandya But pretty much all Hindus living today follow Agamas.

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan Doesn't Veda Samhita contain devotional form of worship?

@KeshavSrinivasan ok. That's really important thing to know I think, as, for instance I can't say I follow (which) Agama.

Keshav Srinivasan

5:06 PM

@Pandya Well, Samhitas don't contain instructions for rituals. The Brahmanas contain instructions on Yagnas, and Agamas contain instructions for more devotional forms of worship like idol worship and the like.

@Pandya Are you an Advaitin by birth, or what?

@Pandya What sect of Hinduism does your family follow?

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan ok. How about mentioning Agamas at?:

12

A: What are the Hindu scriptures which every Hindu should abide by?

Hindu scripture is made up of two categories, Shruti and Smriti. Shruti means "that which is heard" (what Christians would call "revelation"). Hindus believe that from time immemorial, sages known as Dhrishtas (literally "seers") have, during a state of Tapasya (deep meditation), heard sacred v...

Rakesh Joshi

@KeshavSrinivasan they are vedantins in disguise of agama .. cos both are fundAMENtally diffetent

Pandya

@KeshavSrinivasan As I said my thoughts/beliefs lean more towards Advaita.

Rakesh Joshi

5:21 PM

for devotion there is bhakti marga and puranas too talk of it... agama is not for bhakti alone.. bhakti is essential part of all sects.

Keshav Srinivasan

5:52 PM

@Pandya Yeah, but what sect does your family belong to?

Yogi

6:34 PM

@Pandya No its not very much relevant to my question...I am talking about formless bramhan, nevertheless Nirguna Bramhan is very much confused with Formless..

Nathamuni & Yoga Rahasya

Transcript for

Vedanta and Philosophy