So I was here yesterday and I thought the tone of this room was a little off-colour. Now it's been flagged, and I'm back.

This room is taking genuine political discussion and turning it into a platform to throw insults and defame candidates, and that's not okay. That stops, or this room does.

It seems that discussing Trump counts as sci-fi. I guess a few more users will peek into this room simply because of flags.

@ArtOfCode then it needs to go

because that is why is started

so people could bash discuss the pros and cons Brexit

No, the room was started for genuine political discussions that had no place in ME. Political discussion is okay, that's not a banned topic or anything, but it does have to be discussion and polite.

@ArtOfCode The election in the US is dominating the news, so it is only fitting it would dominate discussion in this chat. If individual messages are rude or offensive by all means flag them. but overall the discussion has been polite and users have not been attacked for their views.

Users haven't, but your political candidates are still people and don't deserve to have insults thrown at them.

Yes, everyone is doing it.

But it's still not Nice, and this is SE where you have to be Nice.

The discussion and tone in this room has made a number of moderators, including myself, uncomfortable. That's the point at which you've gone quite a long way too far.

@ArtOfCode Then we should not have a political chat room. People in the public eye are going to subject all sorts of criticism.

You're not getting it. Criticism is fine. Criticism is "I don't think X is good because Y rational reason", expressed politely. That's not what's happening here.

Anyway. I've said my piece, that's the current state of affairs WRT this room. I'll be back to monitor.

@ArtOfCode That's fine, just realize that is ever what this room was about.

I think sums it up nicely...

It's fine to talk about politics and criticize candidates but avoid direct insults. You still need to be nice.

^ example of not the right kind of message

Not picking on @Himarm in particular, that's just an example I found scanning the transcript.

One thing that sets SE apart from a lot of the internet is the Be Nice policy. Let's keep it that way. If you want to sling mud, there are more appropriate places to do it.

@Null and I understand that, like I said if individual message are flag worthy, by all means they should be flagged. The room also ebbs and flows. The dominate conversation is the current election happening in the State for obvious reasons, but we also talk about other things if the deviate too far from the general course of Mos.

@Randal'Thor and we have been nice (aside from questionable language). If you are saying we have to "Be Nice" to the candidates running for President, I would say just close this room now

@Skooba If an individual message is flag worthy it shouldn't be posted in the first place.

@Null Then why have flags at all? /sarcasm

There's nothing wrong with having a political conversation here, and you're free to criticize candidates for their policies, hypocrisies, etc. But direct insults don't serve any purpose.

And the problem isn't just with individual messages but also the overall tone of this room. There've been an awful lot of potentially flag-worthy messages in here - it's just that people haven't really been noticing until now.

@Skooba Flags have brought this room to the attention of quite a few moderators, both from SFF and elsewhere. They're served their purpose in that regard. It has become a problem. My point is that if you think an individual message will be flagged, just don't post it. Otherwise you risk suspension and having this room shut down.

@Skooba Bill said that all throughout his time in the WH.

@Himarm I like how the moderator called them both out on their crap -- but in Hillary's case, that's stuff that has never been presented in mainstream media. So she's like "I don't believe in open borders!" And he's like "here's an email you sent to a Brazilian bank, saying you want open borders". I was cheering in the car.

@Null Yes, I understand that. So either users think their message isn't flag worthy to begin with, or they do and decide to post it anyway. We have no action against that behavior except the flag system. You are not going to find me defending everything that was said in this room, not by a long shot.

My point its that if this room is a "problem", it probably does need to be closed and their inherit topic is going keep creating the same environment. If it's not the US elections, it will be when the Brexit vote comes back in the news. If not that, the war in Sryia. Etc., etc. etc.

It is possible to have a political room without needing to shut it down

It just needs a commitment from its members to have constructive discussion rather than mudslinging.

i cant believe i got flagged for that message

im actually slightly pissed

@ArtOfCode Have you seen all of the flags in this room?

Half of them are for-taste drive by flaggings.

@ArtOfCode My argument would be that the public figures are fair game. If SE users are being attacked that is a different story.

I literally refer to the people who do it as Flag Trolls -- because they don't participate, they just come in and flag.

@ArtOfCode Right. It's even possible to have a whole site for discussing politics within the SE framework. And Be Nice applies there as well as anywhere.

And they flag the most asinine of things.

@Terriblefan If invalid flags have been cast, that's irrelevant.

@Randal'Thor I may have to stalk that chat room, just to see what they talk about in there.

@Randal'Thor "Invalid" is in the eye of the beholder who knows no context.

There are a lot more posts in here that should have been flagged and weren't than posts that shouldn't and were.

people actually believe the clintons are actively killing people in their way, so my statement was completly in line with politics

@Randal'Thor You can argue that. Or you can sit back and take a look at the larger picture.

@Randal'Thor this

@Terriblefan Like I said, invalid flags in the past are irrelevant to the issue of getting this room back on the rails.

People getting offended about political mudslinging have no business being in a politics room.

@Skooba Well, we're here to tell you that some of those messages are flag worthy in case anyone thought otherwise. So the users in here either need to stop posting such messages or we will have to close the room down.

@Randal'Thor Is the room frozen? No. When has it been frozen? When my personal issues were the subject. It's on the rails.

@Terriblefan It's possible to have a political discussion without mudslinging.

Look, there's hardly a point in arguing this. It's not just three moderators - this is a significant number of moderators, across the network, who are discomfited by this room.

@Terriblefan It will be frozen if it keeps on the way it's going.

There's no argument to be had: the message here is shape up or the room gets shut down.

Good

@Terriblefan as mods said before, mudslinging is not "nice" as required by SE rules. If you want to continue to do so, please get a discord etc server and continue there.

Just shut it down. Censorship on an opinion-driven room is asinine.

@arda I'm sorry, do you post here?

^^ I second that

@Terriblefan Apparently they do. They just did.

Do you have anything to do with this room whatsoever, when we're not talking about shutting it down?

@Terriblefan I came because of the numerous flags.

And lo and behold, a room of opinions.

How horrible.

Do you want to go into English and nanny them?

Do you want to shut down Mos again because half our memes are about the failings of individuals?

By all means, burn down everything just so no one will feel offended by other people's opinions.

There is a line of "be nice".

That line is arbitrary and ridiculous.

And it doesn't apply to some people regardless.

@Terriblefan and we have been nice to users of the site

You say obscene, I say par the course, someone from the outside says who cares.

@arda SE policy is to not have off site interaction

@Skooba This is true.

Even Dizzle.

But wait, Dizzle got flagged. Numerous times.

that was going to be my example too

@Himarm that's not true

actually @ArtOfCode go look in agents and see shog9's comments

@Himarm Then go burn down anime.se, I guess

If you want to create an off-site chat, you're entirely free to do so.

we got in trouble for setting up an off site chatroom

Well, Shog9 said it so it must be the word of god and nothing anyone, even other CMs, say can change it. :\

and were told specificly that advertising it would get us suspended

or banned

advertising it would, yeah

having it would not

how am i supposed to tell other people in ch at to join without a pinned message to the chat room

chating about the chat room is discouraged

you're not

In Shog's mind, a link to your friends is an advertisement when you're someone he doesn't like.

You know that.

in fact ill probably get in trouble for sayin gthis

if he comes in here

it doesnt exist

look, we're devolving into argument again

this is not something that can be contested - this room's tone is off, and it does have to change - or leave

If you find yourself doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results, I recommend changing your method.

im just telling you what shog9 told us

that setting up an offsite chat is dangerous

and could get us suspended or banned from this site

I suspect there's more to it than that, but you're deliberately not telling me, or something. shrug

@ArtOfCode but what tone is that? disagreeing with our politicians?

oh for goodness' sake we've been over this

@Skooba Insults, jumping on users who come in here, generating flags that draw users in from around the network.

I'm not doing it again - I'm going to leave it at that. You've been warned, now make your own decisions like the grown ups you are.

shoo then you all said your speel

lets us get our selfs suspended

Not like it's the first, second, third, or fourth time.

@Andy Users have been treated fairly in this room. Actually scratch that, there have been users targeted by outsiders for things unrelated to the topic of this room

We in the room have problem with differing opinions on the topics we discuss

We direct our tone to the politicians we are discussion.

If that is a problem, the room needs to shut down.

@Skooba "users targeted" - STOP

Look mate, I don't want anyone to get suspended, ok? And I'm saying that even though I don't support your political views. There are rules everyone should follow in SE, and you should follow it too.

@Andy You can't control the actions of people outside the site.

You can't even talk with these people. Just look at arda.

@arda I appreciate the effort, really, but it may be easier for you to leave this one :)

Just look at that Pearlbot.

@ArtOfCode I'm not over.

That "there are rules everyone follows" spiel is the stuff Rand tells new users to help them sleep. It's also a lie.

The enforcement is arbitrary.

The rules are arbitrary.

@arda Arda, its nothing against you. There are other issues going here that you may not understand as you have not been a regular of this room or SFF in general.

If you don't want to follow the rules and you have people with similar views that you want to talk with, that's amazing, and I told you several times what you can do: Get a server outside, and follow what shog said. His message is above.

The fact that no one will even discuss these things? You want to call attacking without discussion fair? By all means, point me to your favored chat room.

Now that we've established that flagging from the transcript is acceptable no matter how invalid the flags are, because no one wants to touch that ant hive.

@Skooba I could argue with "nothing against you", but I'm too sleep deprived to keep discussing. Have a nice day folks.

I really appreciate that, Skooba.

are we done yet

@arda I'm not Skooba.

@Terriblefan Yes, because for too long the mods have been turning a blind eye to the non-Nice-ness in this room. Now that's changed.

i have more Shillary meme's

Leaving this to you, @Randal'Thor. Good luck.

im still upset my suspension wasnt removed

since i was invalidly flaged

and did not break the be nice policy with the flagged statement

@Randal'Thor Do you really feel that the users in this room have not been treated nice? You have been in here enough to know.

but whatever

@Skooba Just because you're all nice to each other (the people in the room) doesn't mean the Be Nice policy is being followed.

Can we see what got flagged?

@Himarm Which one? I count multiple flags against various messages.

i seem to remember how nice you were at brexit towards your UK politicians

i recieved 1 flag today

its natural to have a little, bittnerness, in your tone talking about politicians

Statement

@SQB Only if they get validated by the idiot jury.

in fact the arguements agaisnt trump are hes a rapist

so clearly just talking the politics violates the be nice policy

unless its bent, for discussion of accusations

@Randal'Thor the only thing I see that may fail the "Be Nice" is some of the language. If our tone towards the politicians violates the "Be Nice" policy, then this room needs to be closed.

in which case saying trump is a rapist = hillary having people shot

so either politics can be discussed as they are, or we have to IGNORE major issues

To be fair, Hillary is also an accessory to a dozen or two rapes at this point but hey who's counting.

Well, that's the problem. I agree that insults can be flagworthy.

and discuss liter fare, such as taking money from a country that pushes gay people off of roofs as standard policy

But I also can imagine that statements against peoples personal political preference getting flagged as well.

none of us have insulted eachothers beliefs afaik

@SQB They do. All the time.

and if we are harsh ive seen appologies on the issue

@Terriblefan I don't know, since I can't see the flags.

Discussing politics is not the problem here. The fact that none of you seem able to tell the difference between "Clinton has people killed" and "I don't like Clinton's policy on X because Y" is. Likewise between "Trump is a rapist idiot" and "It has been alleged that Trump is a rapist and I tend to believe that allegation".

@SQB I'm just an eyewitness. My testimony isn't binding because Rand might have taken me in the back and beaten me until I misremembered things. Or something.

it has been alleged that hillary will shoot people, and i believe that

so, yeah

That's what bothered me about the Mos Eisley flagfest: I saw the blue come pouring in, without being able to see what had been flagged.

invalid flag

thanks

I'm gonna give this room a timeout now.

im sitting here talking about politics

/shrug

This has now developed into arguing about who's right, who's wrong, and whether SE policy is being enforced correctly.

thats not our fault

That isn't an argument that we should be having - you've been told what the situation is, now you need to do something about it.

you guys said your peice

@Himarm if you abuse your RO status to continue arguing through a timeout, I'll remove it.

see you guys after lunch

as long as it's politics and not mudslinging or further arguments, yes

that's the idea

greetings other mods I don't know what brought you here but I hope your day is well, lol

@DᴀʀᴛʜVᴀᴅᴇʀ Flags.

@DᴀʀᴛʜVᴀᴅᴇʀ read up, gain some context

@Alenanno I am aware, I failed at sarcasm this day.

@DᴀʀᴛʜVᴀᴅᴇʀ Ah lol

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What the... XD

we're trash now. . .

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@DᴀʀᴛʜVᴀᴅᴇʀ I'd like to exclude myself from that statement. Although being here kinda nullifies that. XD So I guess I'll go

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