@SirTechSpec aaah, there

I'll borrow a pithier summary than what I can come up with, btw:

@Shalvenay It kind of sounds like you want everyone to get along and work together to solve the problem at hand, and the satisfaction comes from solving the problem, correct?

Where not solving the problem, even if it makes for a good story, isn't as satisfying?

@SirTechSpec right

the frustrations come when people start trying to "milk" a given problem for story value at the same time as my character's trying to solve it or get people to solve it

I had some similar frustrations with a game I played a while back. It wasn't necessarily about trying to milk a good story so much as just faffing about, not thinking too hard about the best way to solve problems and stay alive.

a lot of Leeroy Jenkins in that group :P

@SirTechSpec it's a lot more frustrating for me because I find that charopt is much easier to drive into the in-character space (which is where I find it belongs -- a wizard not knowing what spells/feats to study for a specific task makes like less than 0 sense to me)

whereas narrative management sits very squarely OOC -- the characters aren't aware of what the players feel is a good story

So in the GNS model, you favor Gamist and/or Simulationist approaches over Narrativist ones.

Simulationist (albeit with the conceit that I can accept alternate realities provided they are reasonably consequentially consistent) over Gamist, but yes

Let me ask you this: would you have a hard time playing a character who wasn't good at their primary combat role?

@SirTechSpec I can play combat-impovrished characters, but that often makes me shift the character's mindset in a way that also breaks a lot of stuff -- basically, I have to redirect their focus far away from combat

and into a space that can best be described as "intentional victimhood" -- otherwise, they wind up basically becoming really good at avoiding fights :P

which basically moots their lack of combat abilities

Fair enough.

It doesn't sound too different from my preferred style - I like getting into my characters' heads, but also winning and solving problems.

Though I'm definitely not an optimizer.

(Though there's a continuum there - I was shocked when several of my current 5e players didn't put 16 in their primary stat.)

part of the problem is I wind up basically making characters that have single-track minds, as a general rule

@SirTechSpec Yikes.

@Miniman It really hasn't been an issue, somewhat to my surprize. Helps that there's 5+ of them, which more than makes up for +4 on attacks instead of +5.

But also, like, this isn't a group for whom the thrill of almost dying and pulling off a last minute tactical victory - or curbstomping a bunch of kobolds, either one - is a significant appeal.

@SirTechSpec It doesn't surprise me that the game copes well with those numbers, but it definitely surprises me that the players who came up with those numbers cope well with the game, if you see what I mean.

@Miniman Probably if we were all imagining our ideal game, DND wouldn't be it. But the allure of a) a bunch of interesting and atmospheric spells and abilities and b) published adventures was too hard to resist.

@SirTechSpec interesting -- I take it you mostly find groups in meatspace btw?

I mean, it's not like they were trying to optimize and failed; they successfully made e.g. a bard who's equally strong and dextrous.

@Shalvenay Mostly, yes.

(Also, nice edit - I was going to comment. :P )

@SirTechSpec I suspect that helps your cause some -- I find that campaign structured play works better than more persistent-world-ish stuff myself, and FWICT meatspace groups favor the former strongly, while platforms for the former online have only emerged relatively recently (and there's still a lot of online RP based on the persistent-world model)

@SirTechSpec Ah, optimizing for the wrong less effective things.

@Miniman which is actually what I've taken to for deoptimizing characters if you will, given that turning off the optimization loops altogether has highly deleterious results

@Miniman It's not even really that. "You know Wisdom isn't your spellcasting ability, right? So your spells and attacks will be less effective with that distribution?" "Yep, that's fine. I just want to be a $CLASS who's really wise."

It's a fundamentally different approach to the game.

@Shalvenay Any examples? Also, why "loops"?

@Shalvenay It's not even really that (may be true, but not intentional) so much as that I'd rather choose who I'm going to spend dozens of hours with, and it's a lot easier to do that by inviting meatspace friends to play (even if they're new) than by finding groups online.

Also, not fond of the jiggery-pokery required to make online RPGs work, though I do it anyway for my college group.

I gotta hit the sack - night!

@Miniman they're feedback processes

@Miniman it's not something I'm particularly comfortable giving examples in a public space though

@Shalvenay As in, you try the character out, see how it goes, then adjust it based on how it went?

@Miniman yeah

Fair enough, that makes sense.

@Shalvenay I'm not sure why this would be, but I'll leave it alone.

hi @Shalvenay

@JoelHarmon -- alright then. so did you want to pick up where we left off with Leoj and my guy? shift gears a bit and do something a bit more martially-oriented? or do you have something else in mind?

nothing in particular

I think one issue with a martial thing is needing to pick a real system

@JoelHarmon well, I wasn't thinking it'd go to blows, more like saber-rattling

whichever direction you'd like to go

also, is there a preferred thing you'd like to explore/discuss this time around?

@JoelHarmon was able to think of something impressive science-mathy-wise that should impress Leoj suitably

we can start there and see where it goes

I suppose, sure

pushes a few more buttons, pulls up a depiction of a binary solar system with several planets orbiting the secondary star "So...what we have here is an interactive simulation of the orbital mechanics of one of the more famous systems I have visited, actually -- J105934." ((go go magnetically perturbed general relativistic n-body problems))

It's an illusion of balls

taps a couple more buttons "Now, I introduced a probe into the picture. Try navigating it around the system and getting it to circle stably around a few of the objects"

meant to signify your planet's nearby stars and planets, I'm sure

hands him the tablet, pointing out how to start the probe moving

fiddles with the controls a bit

it'd be easier if you simply conjured it in the right place to start with

Actually, not my planet laughs as I don't have a planet, in the sense you mean. the probe displays some...interesting to say the least responses between the strong gravity wells and some other sort of field coming from the object in the middle "Try getting it to circle one of the planets now, and keep it stable for a few times around" ((KSP: Exotic Solar System Edition :P))

((how many Kerbals had to die for your stupid simulation?))

@JoelHarmon ((0 :P))

I don't suppose you mean like this? tweaks fingers a bit to create an illusion of the probe circling perfectly inside your hologram

the simulation also responds to his finger-tweaking inputs to it, but...the simulated probe isn't circling perfectly. it delivers one wobbly orbit before being tugged out of place altogether "Close....but you didn't correct for the magnetic field of the magnetar in the middle"

creates a magic-based illusion to cheat at the simulation Like this?

That...isn't the simulated probe, but yes -- you have an idea of the goal I'm after at least.

The world doesn't always bend as one wills

Is this a game you use to train children?

Sometimes you have to learn to play along with its ideas. grins The object in the middle...we actually can't see the real thing from here, as it's not all that visible to the eyes of you or I. And it's a bit of a quick-and-dirty frontend to the simulations I've used in the past to model the behavior of weird-o solar systems before actually having to navigate inside them. I've actually been there, and yes, it's a bit of a pain in the arse figuring out how to get around....

Consider teleportation

Shouldn't matter where exactly you are as long as you're not about to run into something

But to continue after my digression -- if we could see it, we'd have gone blind by now -- it's that bright in the upper parts of the spectrum. And I wouldn't want to consider teleportation considering that one off-by-one in the destination coordinates could turn you into atomic noodles before you figured out what you naffed up.

Magnetar-strength magnets are not kind to things that get too close, for a fairly large definition of "too close". In fact, even at the planets, the magnetic field still has noticeable effects on things.

Consider this -- you ever picked up a lodestone?

Sure; sell them sometimes

I suppose you mean to say this 'magnetar' would be strong enough to bend one of those

Think of something with the same properties as a lodestone, but ten times better at attracting iron....

So what would you do with one of these things? Seems a bit hard to control unless you can tap into it from another plane

Oh, something ten times better at attracting iron than your average lodestone is child's play, basically -- you can buy a magnet of that strength anywhere you go. But now...imagine that "ten times better", repeated ten times over.

so since you're working with planets here, say it's a lodestone strong enough to move the planet

Pretty much, yes -- the effects aren't large, but they are measurable. Magnetars are the strongest magnets in existence, by far -- nothing you or I could find or make comes close.

I suspect you may be mistaken

but out of curiosity, what can you do without your geejaws and gizmos?

Seems everything you've shown is a machine of some kind, unless I'm mistaken.

laughs You apparently do not realize that I am part machine myself....

Didn't. But you're part man as well, are you not?

Of course I am. Biology is but another form of machinery, writ in polymer backbones, ion channels, and hydrogen bond interactions instead of clashing gears and blinking lights

So what can you do if, say, stranded on some planet with none of your usual machines?

Navigate, for one, actually -- the millisecond pulsars shine their radiobeacons brightly no matter the time of day, and I've got everything needed to hear them up in here taps head

So you navigate around your planet until you die? The usual answer around here is to rip a hole in the universe using your will and your mind, and walk home.

Although, where I'm from, there's usually a junkpile you can build things from smirks -- never underestimate what someone of my bloodlines can do with a pile of scrap metal and some time.

((Sebiestor Tribe FTW xD))

And no tools to work with? Around here metal workers usually need a forge.

You improvise tools -- I've actually spot welded metal with something akin to a hand-drill with a hard tip on it, among other things

((friction stir welding, by hand))

And if you're in, say, a forest with no convenient piles of scrap lying around?

As a general rule, the horse you came in on left enough scrap behind to do something useful.

((shall we switch it up and go to the more saber-rattly version of this?))

Sometimes the horse you came in on got up and left

((if you like, sure))

Generally -- that's not how you get stranded on a planet.

But...I should get some rest. Keep the sapphire by the way. You might find it useful someday.

A memento of an interesting conversation, if nothing else

((want to switch up characters for this, or have Leoj learn a thing or two martially speaking for that matter? I'll be switching things up as well))

((I don't have any other character ideas off hand as foils, so I'll stick with him))

((alright, want the same setting or a different one?))

((same is easier))

((want my new char in or out of her armor?))

((as you wish))

((I'll go with out, as it makes for a more....interesting encounter I think? or at least one that's less likely to make Leoj go running off to fetch replacement trousers))

Some other time...

Come again?

oh, just a statement of the IC timeline

((fair enough. Not sure if you suddenly had to head out or not))

((I've got maybe 45 minutes or so))

*A short, stoutly built figure with pale skin and fairly narrow shoulders walks into the room, wearing what at first looks like a prom ensemble -- white gown, white gloves, white/silver boots, and even a white belt....only, with a sidearm at one hip and what looks to be a seriously long knife at the other. Another weapon of some sort looks to be slung on her back, as well....

Well, this is an odd week for guests

"Ah, hello there!" The voice is clearly an alto, and a bright one at that...although the lack of bustline and the general stoutness of the form clearly don't match up with the voice and attire!

doesn't have much in the way of expectations on attire from, basically, space aliens

What can I help you with today?

looks around, then over the elvish figure in front of her "You the only one around these parts I take it?"

I don't have any other guests at the moment, if that's what you're asking

"Ah....I haven't seen anyone in days...

Well, seems it's your lucky day.

had one wild beast who thought I was tasty, but I cured him of that habit. ANd I think so...what do you have around here to drink?"

A few kinds of elven wine; some human wine and ale, and a dwarvish stout.

Oh, and a three month old cask of half-orc swill

"Hrm...I guess I'll try the wine, although it's a shame you don't have a good whisky"

A band of dwarves was through the other day and bought me out; sorry.

"I guess I'll take the wine of...your people I guess?"

goes back behind the bar and starts rooting for a bottle

You've never heard of elvish wine? Best wine in this world, and the three nearest of the outer planes

"Oh, I usually do a Khanid red or spiced red, decent vintages, but Thukker whisky is my preference out of them all. Strong stuff though -- 160 proof at the weakest"

Never heard of them. Local brews, I take it?

@JoelHarmon "Not quite local" laughs brightly "Too bad I don't have some for you to try, although I don't think you could hold Thukker whisky for long"

I'd bet you've never drunk with an elvish inkeeper, have you

"Oh, if the Thukker could distill something stronger than 190 proof, they would. Shame you can't really get a workable drink stronger than that, they say."

The dwarves across the mountains there, points, claim they've distilled it down to pure 200 proof; gotta keep it sealed up tight or some imps come along and sip at it

disappears right out of the glass, they say

looks him over some more "Say, does the road through these parts have any banditry of note on it? Not that they'd want to take a try at me, but good to have some scouting reports on what's up ahead all the same....and also to those dwarven folk....sounds like they've managed to figure out pressure-swing or something, and wouldn't surprise me if it diluted itself back down just picking up moisture from the air"

The roads north and west are both safe. Southeast down toward the gnomish lands has been known to see the occasional bandit. Some of them might take a fancy to your... unique garb.

"Oh, I think they'd be sorely mistaken if they tried that. Once got into a one-on-three in a back alley with some fools. By the time the guards arrived, there wasn't much left for the guards to do besides clean up and get them medical attention"

well it's a good thing those other two could take the hits for you; who was the one guy you were attacking, anyway?

((heh, grammar.))

Wrong way around. One of me, three of them.

I'm sure they were all two stories tall, then? smirks a bit

And oh, some hopped-up fools who somehow thought that a switchblade and a couple of extra pairs of hands would be enough to make me surrender.

I've met the type a few times myself

Oh, laughs No, that'd be my fellow members of the Order, relatively speaking that is...when your comrades are head-and-shoulders above you, you quickly learn how to make big folks fall hard smirks

Usually a couple of humans or a half-orc; come upon a lone inkeeper and assume he's easy pickings because he's not as muscular as them

"Well, they found out what they were holding wasn't really a knife. This is a knife." as she draws 18" of curved steel that glistens with a golden-but-not-quite-gold? color

((and yes, I have seen that scene from Crocodile Dundee xD))

looks around and grabs the nearest piece of cutlery Well, this is a spoon, and that's a short sword. Neither much good in a fight if you ask me

"As to your weapon of choice?" sheathing her knife

"And it's not like I can't hold my own on the range either..."

Words if I can, magic if not

failing that, you could say I'm familiar with a rapier

@JoelHarmon ((Heh, I see what you did there.))

((I see you've played knifey-spoony before; then again, I think you're australian, right?))

@JoelHarmon ((Yep.))

((how are those bull frogs treating you? :P))

@JoelHarmon ((Huh?))

"Ah...one of those thin court swords. I've studied a fair bit of swordplay myself, although I prefer stouter blades if you can't tell." She reaches over her shoulder and adjusts a few things, then produces a meter-long sword with a slight curve starting about halfway up, the blade having the same golden color to it as her knife's blade

((Simpsons? No?))

@JoelHarmon ((Sorry...))

Stouter blades are for butchering hogs. The rapier is a more civilized weapon, for those who don't learn magic

"Civilized, eh? Why do you say that?" She laughs merrily as she sheathes her sword and adjusts a few things again "There's something to be said for having weapons that are good when things stop being civilized, you know?"

Civilized weapons have a certain... elegance to them. Just enough to do the job quick and clean.

"I'm sure those who prefer their aesthetics would have such a preference, yes."

It's also a great advantage in a fight; you can down two or three opponents with a rapier in the time it takes to recover from a swing with a heavier blade

Think of it as economy of motion

"Then you aren't using the heavier blade correctly then."

"EIther that, or your smith really sold you a piece of work" laughs Then again, I don't think your smiths could make you a blade as good as what I have on me.

It's really just a matter of physics. You have to understand that the same amount of strength can move the lighter blade farther and faster than the heavier. We can do some demonstrations if you like.

((yes, I'm attempting to start lecturing you on physics :) ))

((also, it's time I head out; sorry))

"I don't think you should insist on showing off" laughs

@JoelHarmon ((I'd have to watch it first, but sure.))

((and we can pick back up Thursday))

((There are a few other Australians who hang around main chat, so it's quite likely someone's seen it.))

((hopefully, @Shalvenay))

so, looks like you can skip past those early Umpani quests, and also still do them if you did the thing that lets you skip them

but then they give the quests out in a,.... schizophrenic fashion

I got the quests from them out of order, and sometimes they would give me multiples

huh.

I did the Mook Alliance one BEFORE the T'rang scouting one

and before the training one, which I am pretty sure I completed last save without receiving the Mook Alliance one yet