Language Overflow

2:28 AM

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I found Jack [working at the desk]. That [working at the desk] is an object complement, consisting of various grammatical elements. It's Jack who is [working at the desk]. working => Gerund-Participle form of verb, realised by a verb + ing. Here it indicates the action of Jack in progress a...

Man_From_India

2:55 AM

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Q: I fell asleep even before Peter playing his role/part

I wonder whether the following sentence is correct: I fell asleep even before Peter playing his role/part. It was such a boring play to watch. I know that I fell asleep even before Peter´s playing his role/part is better, but I'm wondering if the first could still be correct. Thank ...

Somehow I think it correct the two alternatives OP quoted in his question. But I like the second the most, don't know why though.

Damkerng T.

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Q: How to use "next" - 'your next purchase' is ok, but 'next purchase' is not

According to my grammar books, it reads that you can say "Discount on your next purchase" but not "Discount on next purchase" because you have to put "your" or "the" before "next". could anyone can explain why? Sincerely,

grammar

Next is a superlative, and like all superlatives, it's definite. That's why the forms are often cited as good, better, the best, or in this case nigh, near, the next. It's pretty standard. — John Lawler Jul 5 at 20:21

But we usually say next week, not the next week!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. confusing :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

> a) I fell asleep even before Peter playing his role/part. It was such a boring play to watch.
b) I fell asleep even before Peter´s playing his role/part

I think before Peter's playing something is better than before Peter playing something because the latter has to compete with before Peter played something.

(Also, just before Peter doesn't make sense. I'd say that in order to use someone doing something in a sentence, stripping it down to someone must make sense, too.)

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. right.

yes here before Peter doesn't make sense.

Damkerng T.

(But, hmm... in some contexts, it's possible to say before someone. Then again, the OP's sentence is not one of such contexts, I think.)

@Man_From_India Yes

Man_From_India

3:04 AM

Now it's a source of a bigger problem. We say his doing it and Peter's playing it etc. etc.

Notice that we used the possessive form of pronoun. In CGEL it's a determinative.

But determinative occurs in a NP, before the adjective and head noun.

Damkerng T.

I think him doing it is possible in some contexts.

The most obvious one is possibly She saw him doing it. :D

Man_From_India

But CGEL says doing it or playing it is a Gerund-Participle form of verb. Not a Gerundial Noun.

So it's hard to think of a determinative - his before it.

(wait a sec)

Then CGEL says we can have Hybrid construction. But they are not ready to consider him playing it as a hybrid construction.

They say the subject of Gerun-Participle is the subject form pronoun.

Doesn't that sound contradictory?

@DamkerngT. Yes I know that's possible, but let's put aside those constructions :-)

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Man_From_India

Sorry, let me be clear.

In I like his playing guitar

playing is a Gerund-Participle form of verb, not a gerundial noun.

his the possessive pronoun is the subject of the playing guitar.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I guess we can't think of an alternative to that.

Man_From_India

3:18 AM

It's actually contradicting to their own theory.

how a determinative before a verb?

What does ur student's CGEL say?

Does it provide any more details or anythinh new?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... what is a determinative?

Maybe we should go back to their explanation of I like his playing guitar first, why they think this playing guitar is not a gerundial noun.

(It would be nice if I know the page.)

Man_From_India

wait a second

Damkerng T.

(I think it's easier to think of this playing guitar as some sort of noun. I agree that his is the subject of playing guitar, though.)

Man_From_India

3:33 AM

page no. 1189

after the hybrid construction, at the middle of the page.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... they say This constant telling tales has go to stop is somewhat marginal.

In I resented his constant questioning of my motives, questioning is a noun.

But in I resented his constantly questioning my motives, it's a verb.

So, consequently, we can't tell what it is if it's just I resented his questioning of my motives.

(In other words, it could be either.)

Oh, wait!

One is with of and the other is without.

Man_From_India

Hybrid constructions are marginal, except existential sentences with there.

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

I'm not sure if they say so.

Man_From_India

They, however, said the use of determiner his in I liked his playing guitar. is not like the determiner in NP structure.

Damkerng T.

[59] a. I regretted his leaving the firm. b. Your being a shareholder is important.

@Man_From_India Under what example?

Man_From_India

3:41 AM

Hmmm it's in that place where they compare the gerund-participle structure to that of for-to construction.

Damkerng T.

You meant in [60]?

In [59], they call it "genitive NP".

Man_From_India

let me find out the page number

Damkerng T.

(I'm still on 1189-1190)

Man_From_India

page 1190

under optionality of genitive NP

Damkerng T.

Under what example?

(It's much easier to track down a paragraph by its example number.)

Man_From_India

3:44 AM

[59](i)

Damkerng T.

4 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

[59] a. I regretted his leaving the firm. b. Your being a shareholder is important.

Obviously, they think it's a NP.

Man_From_India

correct

Damkerng T.

So, I guess this is not in accordance with CGEL:

33 mins ago, by Man_From_India

playing is a Gerund-Participle form of verb, not a gerundial noun.

(and thus, we didn't find a self-contradiction in CGEL. At least, not yet!)

Man_From_India

no my point is

say I regretted his leaving the firm.

Here leaving the firm is not a Gerundial Noun, but a Gerund-Participle form of verb.

right?

Damkerng T.

Not so, if I understand the book correctly.

Hmm... wait.

The head of the section says "Analysis of the genitive NP as subject of the gerund-participial".

It's a bit strange that they consider only his (not, say, his SOMETHING) as a genitive NP.

Man_From_India

3:51 AM

because they are not considering leaving in leaving the firm a Gerundial Noun. They take it as a verb, or Gerund-Participle form of verb.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... in [61] (a syntax tree), they also analyze his/him constantly questioning my motives as a gerund-participial.

Man_From_India

They compared the structure to I regretted for him to leave the firm.

I understood their theory. But think of it it's not a NP. But still it can take a determiner. Is not it strange?

Damkerng T.

You mean arranged, I think.

Man_From_India

yes

Damkerng T.

Wait, I think determiner doesn't exist in their framework.

Man_From_India

3:55 AM

the determinitive in their terminology.

Damkerng T.

We've established that in his constantly questioning my motives (and consequently his playing guitar) is a gerund-participial in their framework.

To point out a self-contradiction, if exists, we have to find that they say [ a) a genitive is a determinative, and b) a determinative can't head a gerund-participial ] in their book.

(It may be in conflict with the definition and usage of "determiner" in other frameworks, but we can't mix two frameworks together.)

Man_From_India

hmmm they say it's a pronoun, and his a genitive case.

CowperKettle

5:00 AM

8

Q: Why is Russia translated to 俄罗斯(E Luo Si)?

The Chinese Wikipedia article describes the name of Russia, and many of its historical Chinese exonyms. 按照俄语发音“Россия”，其名称应翻译为“羅西亚”。元朝时根据蒙古语译为「斡羅思」[b]，到清朝初年许多文献中曾称为「羅剎」[c]，但在以国家相称时则多译为「鄂羅斯」[d]或「俄羅斯」。清乾隆年间官修《四库全书》时将其正式统一为“俄羅斯”或简称“俄国”，自此沿用至今。[12] 日本漢字與朝鮮漢字則將俄羅斯稱為「露西亞」（日语：ロシア roshia */?，韓語：노서아 ...

translation etymology pronunciation

I live in E luo si.

Damkerng T.

5:18 AM

Hmm... I thought it was "E Guo" (俄国).

CowperKettle

Sawasdee Khrap!

Damkerng T.

Sawasdee khrap!

CowperKettle

5:43 AM

I imagegoogled the word you used in parentheses, and found this

And this. (0:

Real Russia!

Damkerng T.

:D

国 ("guo") ~ country. (E.g., China is "jong guo" ("jong" ~ middle), Thailand is "tai guo", USA (America) is "mei guo", and so on.)

Come to think of it, I think 国 is the simplified form.

Ah, right. Its original form was 國.

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

So traditionally, Russia would be 俄國.

Thailand would be 泰國.

USA (America) would be 美國.

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

Interestingly, Google Translate gave me 印度 (read "yindu") for India!

Japan is 日本 ("riben")!

Ah, Korea conforms to the pattern, 韓國 ("hanguo"). (The Chinese script used in Korean is called "hangul".)

TIPS

6:22 AM

@DamkerngT. Looks like a scenery you can see from a window

CowperKettle

> Trust not your self; but your Defects to know,
Make use of ev'ry Friend--and ev'ry Foe.

I should read this poem.

Good day, Muhammad! BBL

And good day, @V.V.!

> And that inverted Bowl we call The Sky,
Whereunder crawling coop't we live and die,
Lift not thy hands to It for help - for It
Rolls impotently on as Thou or I.

Wow. Some great quotations here.

TIPS

8:03 AM

@CowperKettle Yo

TIPS

8:28 AM