@AshleyNunn Scotch will be very disappointed in you. That's ok, Scotch is forgiving. You must forgive yourself first though; forgive yourself with Scotch.

@AshleyNunn I'm glad to see we killed the off-topic crockery about "SE participation bla bla bla" in here with a healthy focus on The Whiteboard's correct focus. Booze.

Wouldn't want it to get too far off topic and have shog come lock the place up

@GlenH7 rabble rabble rabble!

the people in here also seem to be more consistently unoffensive and unoffended

and unaggressive in their opinions

@JimmyHoffa I think it got into my heart in some sense way back when I read learn you a haskell; I liked a lot of what I saw

though I'll probably never have a chance to use it seriously

@GlenH7 imo being derailed isn't really part of the problem at all

not that it matters now

oh bloody hell - my minimal testcase works

suppose that's sort of a good thing; at least I know what I'm trying to do is possible

is that unusual?

well I was hoping it would reproduce the issue I'm having on my actual server then I wouldn't have to do any more work

oh THAT kind of "works"

yeah the bad kind

usually when that happens to me, it means it's at least partially my fault

@Ixrec the thing that haunts me about Haskell in my day to day is every time I have to do something stateful; parsers, right now for instance I've got a snippet I'm creating a TreeView graph from an arbitrary block of JSON because JSON is easily represented as such - anytime I have a bunch of data that needs to be fiddled, or when I've had to write in-memory data stores with query/update facilities.. Do any of that stuff in Haskell and you'll wish to use it seriously in your work

Ultimately I'm trying to install pynab on my ageing VPS. but I'm hitting roadblock after roadblock

as usual

in the immortal words of my 5 year old who behaves like an immortal: Nutballs. I've had a cough all day and a sore throat now...

@LightnessRacesinOrbit buy a bigger truck, I'd like to see a roadblock stop one of these

maybe I should just keep going with newznab but omg the periodic hangs are so annoying

What are you actually trying to do?

what is that monstrosity

the 2nd one

the Promises/A+ spec is surprisingly concise and readable

@Ixrec but flawed. (As I mentioned before; non monadic, inconsistent, not associative)

/shrug

@JimmyHoffa run a usenet indexer

@Ixrec have you worked with them much?

and that's enough said about that

@LightnessRacesinOrbit you're kidding?

@JimmyHoffa promises or monads? (yes and no)

@JimmyHoffa no?

@LightnessRacesinOrbit 1979 called, it says neener neener.

@JimmyHoffa huh

@Ixrec I meant specifically the A+ promises

I think the promises I've been using are A+

@Ixrec ok then. Fair thee well. It's probably me; when I tried working with them for a few weeks they gave me nothing but headaches.

I can safely say they're a massive improvement over no promises at all

@Ixrec Is that a ... promise?

I will not apologise for that A+ pun.

I have no comparable experience with other kinds though

huh it got late

@Ixrec well yeah, but I had been using jquery's deferreds a lot already and I just switched and the fact that jquery deferreds were monadic and A+ promises weren't I was running into lots of issues

I've only recently sort of confirmed to myself that I don't want to go to the pub after all, and it's a good thing since I would now not be able to get there before closing time

If they're the first promises you really worked with then it probably would be a thorough improvement.

@Ixrec have you not used the C++11 promises/futures stuff? (that's a part of STD lib per 11 I think? I can't make sense of versioning in C++)

nope

what versioning is there to make sense of? there's C++98, C++03, C++11, C++14, a few TRs in between and that's kinda it

and yes std::promise is a C++11 thing

@Ixrec does the STD lib version with the language? Always?

I'm pretty sure they are the same standard so there is no complication there to worry about

e.g., a big deal of C++11 was the addition of move semantics, and how it made std::unique_ptr possible to implement

they tend to go together

It's no different than .NET I suppose, there's improvements to the underlying framework in .NET versions which can be updates to the runtime and or the libraries it uses, and then the language C# has a totally separate versioning scheme..

ah, I guess .NET is even more confusing

ok, I was wondering where this separate versioning thing came from

since it's not a thing in any language I use

I suppose .NET is large enough it doesn't have much of a choice

@Ixrec well they add features to the C# language on one timeline, and a separate team may add enhanced libraries to the .NET framework, and a separate team may add enhanced GC or JIT to the runtime; .NET is parceled up into components that all share IL as their medium

they can all be released separately (and have been at some times)

C++ has been trying to parcel itself into several "working groups" that each deliver their own proposals, but I think the actual specs are still an all-or-nothing thing that'll happen every X years

if you're using bleeding-edge compilers you can probably use some of the proposed libraries before they make it into a real spec, I think the filesystem one has been out there for a while

I guess the fact that the standards committee and the implementers are two separate groups of people probably has something to do with it

Either way, the std::promise and std::future stuff in C++ I remember having to fidget with when I wrote the one C++ lib I wrote in recent memory that took data off a socket from an old C lib in chunks then concurrently posted those chunks to an ActiveMQ server with it's RESTful publishing API. I recall it was very clear and simple. I rather liked it for it's minimalism making it hard to misunderstand or get wrong.

all the examples I've read about std::async and std::promise and whatnot make it look pretty nice, certainly a lot easier than dealing with threads directly

wow the ASP.NET local server thing in vs2015 takes forever to start up, thats weird

though I tend to get lost around the time they introduce all the near-synonymous constructs like std::packaged_task

and there's that one very unfortunate issue about std::future's destructor semantics being different if it was created by a std::async call

@whatsisname is this newer than IIS Express? I haven't snagged VS2015 yet...

I don't know, just fired it up for the first time

@Ixrec O_O gah.. see, this is why you C++ folks can't have nice things...

in 2012 it would load up virtually instantly

@JimmyHoffa inorite

in particular I remember someone feeling the need to write an essay about Why Deprecating async() is the Worst of all Options

@whatsisname IIS Express has the benefit that unlike the old dev server - it doesn't up and croak between debugging sessions but stays running and just recompiles and reattached each new session so it took longer the first time...

But I believe 2012 ran IIS Express as well

tbh I have no idea if that issue would have any real impact on me in normal code

@whatsisname I just avoid the whole headache and use attach to->w3wp because especially since IIS Express - there's wayy too much different between the two. I've had stuff working in IIS Express with defaults that a standard IIS requires complete reconfiguration to work at all too many times... honestly I use a console app for dev with .NET web services these days using OWIN self host to avoid the whole mess

only 82,500 seconds left until Mos Eisley reopens!

yeah I think I might just abandon this and use plain-jane ASP.NET rather than MVC because that's what I'm more familiar with

@whatsisname don't do it... the regret..the pain... just use an OWIN self hosting console app.

It's like 10 lines of code

yeah but can my console app serve up asp files?

@whatsisname it hosts ASP.NET MVC

go to create new project->online template search thingy->search for OWIN Self Host and there's tons of templates for doing just that

There's an ASP.NET MVC SPA console app project online in that search if I'm not mistaken

that's what I used before (now I just self-host WebApi and write all the HTML on the client side)

@AshleyNunn this is part of the reason the Internet of Things has almost no appeal for me yet

or you could just use good old WebForms because fuck it; it's fast and easy if you know it already.

@JimmyHoffa: that's kind of what im thinking

long term maintenance is not a concern of mine

Yeah; then whatever. It's just a matter of purpose, if somebody wanted some one-off little thing I'd have done the same before I got practiced with OWIN... years of WebForms means it's bloody easy to throw out a quick stupid thing if you'll not have to go back to it and it won't be huge.

I don't want my toaster to decide it's not going to toast anything today because it couldn't connect to the corporate servers for daily DRM checks due to some expired SSL certificate or flaky WiFi or whatever

@Ixrec also because it's a marketing buzzword and you're an engineer...

@JimmyHoffa in this case it's a buzzword with a legitimate meaning, so when I'm making a general statement like that it's not too bad

internet of things == marketing speak for "adding devices that have no business whatsoever being on the internet to the internet so they can spy on you for our benefit"

@Ixrec not much more legitimate than cloud... honestly, it's just jabber for a feature that is not even remotely useful in any way other than profit enhancement.

I agree the functionality is almost entirely useless

just saying the term has an actual meaning, unlike "strongly typed" or "synergy" or whatever

exactly

whenever someone tries to convince me to use a new technology at work one of my top priority questions is "What do I do when this breaks?"