@LeeWoofenden you tell us pretty repeatedly how much time you've invested in this, but you don't seem to answer any of the important questions!
Granted, there is some complexity and mystery here... But if you're 40 years educated on the matter, I'd hope you can at least articulate the mystery a bit.
It's a pretty empty statement to claim that X is "spiritual" when you can't articulate what that means. Or in what sense "the spiritual" is actually real..
> A mathematical theory is not to be considered complete until you have made it so clear that you can explain it to the first man whom you meet on the street. - An Old French Mathematician quoted by David Hilbert
> You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. - Albert Einstein
(Both sources aren't necessarily credible, so take their attributions with a grain of salt.)
@El'endiaStarman I think I verified once that Einstein did say something like this, but his name is often put under quotes. One of the perks of being a renown genius.
But I don't see people quoting Hawkins too much ...
@svidgen I think Einstein has the benefit of being one of the first "famous" geniuses. Give it about 30 years and we might see people saying "You're such a little Hawkins."
@LeeWoofenden No, that's the common sense position. The body makes the brain, the brain does not make the body.
@LeeWoofenden I was mostly joking. I think they're basically equally real, but the spiritual reality is the greater one, and it is also harder to perceive.
It would help your position to point out that many verses emphasize the condition of the heart over the position of the mind.
I know I've read some recently in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians.
> 17 Don’t act thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts. - Ephesians 5:17-19
> 3 When I left for Macedonia, I urged you to stay there in Ephesus and stop those whose teaching is contrary to the truth. 4 Don’t let them waste their time in endless discussion of myths and spiritual pedigrees. These things only lead to meaningless speculations, which don’t help people live a life of faith in God.
> 5 The purpose of my instruction is that all believers would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and genuine faith. 6 But some people have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time in meaningless discussions. - 1 Timothy 1:3-6
That last one is certainly clearer.
> 20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. - 1 Cor 1:20-21
> 1 When I first came to you, dear brothers and sisters, I didn’t use lofty words and impressive wisdom to tell you God’s secret plan. 2 For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness—timid and trembling.
> 4 And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit. 5 I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God. - 1 Cor 2:1-5
@LeeWoofenden Naturally, I disagree. I think you avoided the answer with fluffy examples of things, many of which we could say with a high degree of certainty are physical phenomena -- like emotions.
> 20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Or NASB...
> 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1 Timothy 1:3-6 in NASB is:
> 3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
> 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
@fredsbend I would say that the mind is rational and the heart is emotional.
@fredsbend We're 196 days into the year, and I've only missed 8 of them. I think the most consecutive I've done was like 45 so far. Currently at 32, we'll see if I get fanatic this go-around.
Late to the party indeed. I've felt quite disreputable up to now, fierce bear though I be.
@PaulVargas That's the only source I've seen that definition in, so I doubt it. I'm named after a bear, the last of the seven bears of Logres, to be specific. Mr. Bultitude escaped a zoo, only to be rescued by the patrons of the community at St. Anne's and tamed by one Elwin Ransom. He ends up a hero, as you can read in That Hideous Strength.
I thought for sure there was another reference about being eaten by a bear, but the search engine is giving me nothing.
@fredsbend Materialists generally do think of their beliefs as "the common sense position." But common sense is often a poor means of establishing the truth. Common sense says that a brick wall is solid. But we know from science that on fact it is mostly empty space, and the "solidity" is a matter of attractive and repulsive atomic forces.
@El'endiaStarman I would say that spiritual reality iseasier to perceive. It is the only reality of which we have direct experience. We live on our mind, which is a spiritual entity. We experience our thoughts and emotions directly. In contrast, all of our experience of physical reality is indirect and mediated, and our actual experience of it is in the mind. Our own consciousness is our only dicect, unmediated experience of any reality.
Further, as long as our physical body is reasonably healthy and functional, and our basic physical needs are met, our emotions and thoughts rule out lives and human society in general. And even in situations in which our physical conditions are horrible, the mind can choose not to react as would normally be expected, but to take an entirely different attitude and path than physical circumstances would suggest.
So in our actual, human experience, which is more real, the physical or the spiritual?
@fredsbend I resemble that remark!
Several instances of "on" should be "in." Still on my tablet.
And an "out" should be "our." I think Chatsey is specifically designed to outrage my editorial sensibilities.
@svidgen You think of emotions as a physical phenomen? Wow. Materialism rules. No wonder God wrote the Bible the way he did. He had to reach a planet full of people who are so physical-minded that they have almost no conception of or belief in anything beyond what they gather from their physical senses.
@asfallows I'd suggest looking at the chatroom description and deciding based on that whether what you're thinking of posting fits the purpose of this chat.
@LeeWoofenden Explain to me what's spiritual about them. Explain something!
Remember that, although there are a lot of reasons a preacher should have a good enough grasp on the spiritual to explain it in some way, the primary reason it's relevant here is to give some small semblance of meaning to your claim that certain Biblical events and/or commands held a strictly "spiritual" intent. E.g., the Eucharist and baptism.
Perhaps I owe you a better question though. Or possibly an "illustration" that sort of requires the explanation I'm looking for in order to properly interpret the illustrated scenario. ... So, I'll think on that -- unless the reason this is important to the discussion has become any clearer to you.
@LeeWoofenden Maybe while I'm letting that simmer, I could pose a related question: How do you know whether someone's conception of a non-physical, spiritual entity is real or not real?
@asfallows I post my blog posts in here all the time. Go ahead.
@LeeWoofenden Do you not remember fredsbend and I giving examples of how our body posture and facial expressions can effect our emotions? Emotions can't be regarded as a purely spiritual phenomenon, which I think is the way you see them.
Well, my post is a little bit different, but since I know a lot of the people on any given StackExchange are fairly likely to be in a technical field, I wanted to share kingdombuilders.io -- it's a community I'm working on building, and it's for people who create technology for ministry and missions (or who want to).
@El'endiaStarman I think this new guy is going to give us trouble. We'll have to temporarily team up so we can beat him down.
@asfallows Formerly named user Hand of Don (now mastermissions.com), has a startup site for similar things as well. See his meta post.
@El'endiaStarman As long as it's not totally obnoxious, right? I mean, it has to at least be something we might be interested in. Random drops of muslim proselyte links have resulted in chat suspensions before, for example. @asfallows
I remember once having my mind blown by this kind of thing. Someone said that in on Earth, or any large scale actually, you can make a triangle with each angle having 90 degrees.
This is because of the hyperbolic geometry thing you're talking about, I bet.
@asfallows You bet.
@LeeWoofenden Common sense is pragmatic. The super-micro and the super-macro scale observations we've made seem to counter common sense, yes. But, we're not talking about science, as you'd readily admit, I'm sure, so I don't understand your objection to me saying that what I've said is common sense, as in pragmatic and useful to life.
@LeeWoofenden But one yield predictable results and the other does not. Indeed, my own thoughts and emotions are unruly. I know that certain things that happen will result in me thinking or feeling one way or the other, but when left alone during those quiet times between waking and sleeping, my mind is very unpredictable. It goes where it goes and I have no guess at where it will go next.
Even if I take your assumption that my mind and emotions are the only direct experience, I cannot depend on my own mind in isolation to give me anything useful once out of my mind.
Though, it is possible that I am perpetually out of my mind ;)
Try taking something like a ping pong ball or tennis ball and a sharpie. Draw a line of any length (1/4 of the circumference is best, and around the middle). Draw lines at the endpoints at right angles to the one you drew first. Ta-da! Triangle with 3 90-degree angles!
@LeeWoofenden So back to what I was saying, I don't think consciousness represents any kind of reality. I'm not even sure it's real. That is axiomatic that I call it real in the first place. Or, at least, as I was saying, I cannot depend on it solely to give me any useful information, so even if you're right, what's the point you're trying to make?
@LeeWoofenden I'm not sure a guy named Maslow would agree with you. He posited that if your body does not get it's basic needs met, then you cannot reach the potential of your mind. Further, he posited that certain mental needs must be met before you can reach your potential too.
@fredsbend Like, you saw it disappear immediately? Yeah, that might be why. Either that, or a mod was extraordinarily quick to see it and take action. :P
@fredsbend I just mention it when I deem it relevant. In this case, I found the incongruity of being a large fearsome bear and at the same time feeling inferior about not having a gold badge worth remarking upon.
You can make your pretend face for me match my picture, and keep this in mind: never cross me, or I will eat you. Nobody wants to be eaten by a bear, so that threat ought to keep my biographical details etched in your memory as a function of your survival instinct.
@fredsbend This seems like a good time to remind you I'm a bear. In the words of David Attenborough, "The grizzly's nose has a knack for sniffing out suggested edits."
@El'endiaStarman It may have been coincidence, but right after you started the experiment my computer stopped responding to anything for a few minutes.
But I do have a craptop, so it doesn't take much to incapacitate it. I have to be careful not to harm it when I get impatient with it. Since I'm a bear.
@El'endiaStarman Well I'll let it slide this time, but if you ever pull a stunt like this again, especially if you dip yourself in honey first, I'm going to eat the snuff out of you.
Why do Orthodox Jews not believe in the New Testament?
The Upper Room
The Upper Room