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Double U

12:39 PM

I'm back again. I'm not dead yet!

Recently, I have been reading Born Again, a novel written by Kelly Kerney.

Kelly Kerney herself is raised in a strict, fundamentalist-like Pentecostal household.

Her novel is entirely fiction, but the Pentecostal aspect is supposed to be believable and realistic.

I am just on the beginning chapters, and I find it very insightful, because I am looking into the eyes of an insider.

Apparently, strict, fundamentalist Pentecostals view everyone but themselves as "not Christian". Ouch.

The novel's protagonist has a negative view towards Lutherans and Presbyterians. She views them as "Sunday Christians". In my head, I think she is making too much of a broad brushstroke to consider all Lutherans and Presbyterians as "Sunday Christians". waxeagle (a devout Presbyterian here) would certainly be offended.

The protagonist also plans to convert her friend, Beth, the Methodist. She views Methodists as "nonreligious" that deserves to be saved.

She seems to take Extra ecclesiam nulla salus literally, espousing extremely interdenominational animosity.

IIRC, Pentecostalism is a cross-denominational movement within Christianity. One highlighting feature is that Pentecostals traditionally spoke in tongues, as they believed speaking in tongues occurred on the day of the Pentecost.

Another highlighting feature is that Pentecostals have altar calls. The altar call is a custom in virtually all Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, and Charismatic circles.

Interestingly, Methodists are theologically rooted in Wesleyan theology.

I think "Sunday Christian" is a code word for "a self-identifying Christian that is affiliated with mainstream churches, like the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, and the Anglicans. Plus the Catholics and the Orthodox."

That is pretty much everyone who is Trinitarian and follows the Nicene creed.

The protagonist in Born Again is most likely Evangelical, Fundamentalist, and Pentecostal all at the same time.

I can't say that she's Charismatic or Wesleyan, because Pentecostalism is a cross-denominational movement.

Realistically, she would identify herself as just "Christian". Adding the "Pentecostal" part or just using "Pentecostal" would signify that she views her denomination as just another denomination within Christianity. She clearly does not.

Double U

2:19 PM

Hi, I am currently reading this novel by Kelly Kerney. It's called Born Again. I am still in the beginning chapters, but as the narrative unfolds, it is becoming more and more intriguing.

The work is fictional, but it is inspired by an insider's look in the Fundamentalist/Pentecostal tradition.

The book's narrator is very witty and thoughtful, while holding Fundamentalist/Pentecostal beliefs.

Yet, I find the protagonist's beliefs also very disturbing. She wants to convert her Methodist friend to Pentecostalism, because she believes that Methodism is not Christian enough.

I would expect that Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians would attempt to convert each other, or that Protestants and Catholics would attempt to convert each other, but I do not really expect a Protestant to convert another Protestant. How ironic. If Mel had been a real person, then I would tell Mel that she should really go to a Methodist church. However, she'll probably respond that the Methodist church is a "Sunday church", not a real church.

Given that Mel perceives the Methodists are somehow "secular", I have a hard time imagining what a "sharing the gospel" would be like. Mel would assume her Methodist friend, Beth, is an atheist and proposes a series of questions that assume a godless viewpoint. Meanwhile, Beth would probably go like, "Eh? I'm not an atheist. I believe in the triune God. What is this crap?"

Caleb

← 6 messages moved from The Library

Double U

Apparently, Mel insists her hermeneutical tradition is not only correct, but also completely factual and historical.

On page 15, she reads a booklet titled Surviving a Secular Classroom, and point number 6 says, "Can you explain how absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed? [goes on to talk about biblical prophecies in the OT that predict Jesus' birth.]"

2 hours later…

Double U

4:47 PM

Mel's description of a Pentecostal worship service is something that you have to see it to believe it.

Amazing Pentecostal Worship UPC

►

Fast-paced music, clapping, dancing.

In all the churches I've been to in my neighborhood, none of them danced. Not even in the low-church Southern Baptist church or in the Berean Bible church.

I think the ELCA church I attended in my neighborhood would be classified as high-church.

wax eagle

@DoubleU usually if they've got an E in the name, they would :)

(when the E means Episcopal)

Double U

@waxeagle The E in ELCA stands for Evangelical.

And Evangelical, in Lutheran parlance, means Lutheran.

wax eagle

yeah

Double U

I think the L is included, because there are dozens of churches in the United States that all like to identify themselves as "Evangelical". So, to further distinguish themselves from all the other Evangelicals, they add "Lutheran".

Now, to complicate the matter, social scientists use the terms "evangelical" and "mainline" to divide Christianity in the United States, giving an impression that somehow "evangelicals" are younger and hippier than the mainline body.

wax eagle

yeah....

Double U

4:57 PM

@waxeagle Is there dancing involved in your Presbyterian church?

wax eagle

@DoubleU lol, no

presbyterians are pretty staid

though my church is pretty laid back

Double U

@waxeagle Is there clapping in your Presbyterian church?

wax eagle

@DoubleU only for very specific songs

that's very church dependent though

Double U

@waxeagle I can't imagine clapping or dancing in the ELCA church I attended. Given the slow rhythm of the classical hymnal music and the uniformity of the congregants, clapping and dancing or both together would be unheard of.

The amount of structure in that liturgy and the elaborate things that seem to be required seem to be what people would call "high-church", because it does show a lot of resemblance to the Roman Catholic Church.

@waxeagle Is this a joke? I sense that it is an inside joke.

wax eagle

5:18 PM

@DoubleU a lot of the times the E in church name Acronyms means "Episcopal" which tends to a marker of high churches

2 hours later…

fredsbend

7:16 PM

What do you guys think of this idea:

Q: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

What is the Sandbox? This "Sandbox" is a place where Worldbuilding.SE users can get feedback on prospective questions they wish to post. This is useful because writing a clear and fully specified question on the first try can be difficult. There is a much better chance of your question being wel...

Should C.SE have one?

This was interesting:

Q: Why do Mormons believe Quetzalcoatl (and other American deities) are actually Christ?

I've been doing some research into Quetzalcoatl, and one of the surprising things about him is that Mormons think he is Christ (Mormons believe Christ visited America, and that the story of Quetzalcoatl is actually a corrupted version of the story of Christ). The Book of Mormon is a sacred, a...

mormon aztec quetzalcoatl

Double U

7:56 PM

@fredsbend I've been to a Mormon service once myself, and I was surprised that Mormons really do believe Native Americans knew Christ before.

@fredsbend Think of it this way. When a person posts a question, he collects points from it, and it is assumed that the points are awarded to the well-formed question. When you have a dozen people contributing to a single question, and only one person posts the final question, that one person gets the points while other contributors are merely contributors.

@fredsbend are you still an agnostic?

@fredsbend do you still attend church and sunday school?

@fredsbend what about your children's spirituality? What if they happen to enjoy going to church?

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