Morning!

Morning SR!

aviation.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/5960

Is there some kind of policy or best practice on links to PDF? I don't think so, is there?

not that I know of, though I tend to include that it is a PDF link

Thank you.

@voretaq7 no engine testing over the field?

@voretaq7 I took out the side-by-side item in the training aircraft question. seaplanes, gliders, tailwheel airplanes are almost all tandem, and i think it would give peopel a false impression that "this is not a training aircraft" if they went to the airport and saw a citabria

@rbp re your V1 cut answer, fun trivia: One of my old companys FTDs cockpit was salvaged from our one airframe loss which happened on a training flight V1 cut before we had simulators

and further, the APD who was on board the accident flight was the same one who granted my ATP and EMB-145 type :)

@casey i wish they would do V1 cuts for initial multi in sims

@rbp the company I instructed for had a DE pull that on a students initial multi checkride. No injuries but the plane was damaged in the subsequent "landing"

he failed with the mixture at rotation and the engine quit just after airborne

@casey yes, very dangerous. esp on smaller runways

its why they don't require full-down autos in copters anymore, except for CFI

I would fail an engine with throttle, but it was always a very low speed event

e.g at the very beginning of the takeoff roll before airspeed was alive

I've heard some instructors really do pull the mixture, then tell the student, "Engine failure. Deal with it"

i guess as long as they themselves (the instructors) are comfortable "dealing with it"

and willing to accept the consequences

yea, as an instructor you need to have a lot of faith in your student to pull that at low levels

because a student can do the exact wrong thing before you can do anything

and then you are upsidedown in the grass

did you see the SR20 crash video?

certainly not before your student can expertly demonstrate VMC demos taken to loss of direction control (rather than stall horn with no loss of directional control)

in the seminole you had the block the rudder authority to get it to lose directional control before stall

preliminary findings: ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/…

@casey what does that mean?

wow, that isn't the recommended landing procedure :)

he claims it was turbulence from the blackhawk that had lifted off 25 seconds before

i call BS

@rbp artificially limit rudder pedal movement

i see, limit rudder authority so the student doesn't stall ?

or doesn't spin? lol

@rbp exactly

VMC demo in the seminole will almost always end with the stall warning

so if you actually want to see what the loss of directional control looks like, you have to do that

@kevin you don't take the demo to a stall, so no spin

@casey VMC demo with one engine?

the point is to show the student that although they are banking and applying rudder in one direction the airplane is turning the opposite direction

@rbp yea, we ran them with one engine just above idle to simulate a feathered engine

i don't have multi

we did to full shutdowns and feathering, but we didnt do the VMC demo like that

have thought about getting it, but I don't think i'll ever be doing much multi flying

imho its not worth it unless you are going to own one or want to go commercial

i did take this course though, about 10 years ago: b737.com

got 1.4 in the 737 level D sim

with my son as partner. he had just passed his multi checkride, and the instructor gave him an engine fire at 1000 ft on the ILS into SFO

nice

wow I only got around 20 minutes in a 737 sim

I have probably 20-30 hours in a 737 jumpseat :(

i was PNF and was busy running the checklists. he flew it right onto the centerline with the needles in the center

and even worse, probably 10 hours in the second jumpseat of a 757. so uncomfortable

hvn't been on a 757 i think, even as passenger

made me really proud

@rbp how did he handle it? land it and pull the fire handles?

yes

nice

but i don't remember exactly what the checklist called for.

my guess - A/T disconnect, throttle to idle, fuel cut off?

sounds about right

@kevin there is more to it in a jet, though not much more

hmmm... bleed off, cross-bleed valve closed?

the fire handle will isolate the bleeds

i see

generally thrust idle, fire handle pull, wait 30 seconds, pull the other handle. still fire? evac.

for ground engine fire / severe damage

evac on opposite side, of course

for airborne fire I wouldnt even touch the thrust levels on final

a burning engine will still produce partial power

:)

on takeoff with a fire at V1 you use all the power until you get high enough to start running your engine fire memory items and checklists to reduce power and put out the fire if it is still burning, then secure the engine

sounds like fun

as we just sit there, silencing the alarm and keep flying as if nothing was wrong

then at 1500' "What appears to be the problem?" . "Engine is on fire."

> and you are not doing anything out it?!

eventually you have to attempt to put it out

at that point we call for the checklists and let ATC know what we want from them

but we didn't call for or run the engine fire checlists until 1500' AGL

that checklist was thrust idle, if still burning, pull the handle. if still burning after 30 seconds, pull the handle. No attempted restart after a fire

aviate, navigate, communicate (-:

and of course that sim scenario starts with a 600 RVR takeoff into IMC until you are at CAT I mins on the single engine approach on your way back in.

if you are extra lucky you get to do the single engine go around

and our autopilot was not authorized on for single engine approaches

it could do single engine enroute, but you couldnt fly the approach with it

speaking of that, I loved the reactions I'd get from some guys when I'd announce I was going to fly the ILS "raw data"

what do u mean, like, no F/D?

yea, no FD

in our plane you had to slave the FD to the other side otherwise it keeps turning itself on

no FD, no AP

I did one of those whenever I could to stay proficient

and I always hand flew my approaches

except for CAT II, which we had to do with the autopilot

how often do u do CAT II for real?

like, except for training purpose

I only flew 5 in 4 years

my HSI has flight director bars, which I used when hand flying, although not in the go around

the pitch attitude with the gear down was never high enough

there's the panel

@rbp The engine hasn't had anything done to it (aside from squirting oil into the cylinders) - It's going to get a static ground run & the high-speed taxi testing, but not much else

@rbp (and a Citabria isn't a training aircraft, it's a "fun" aircraft!)

well, they train primary students in them all the time

@voretaq7 so, the T-6 Texan is really the AT-6 advanced trainer

the BT-13 is the basic trainer (vultee "vibrator")

the PT-17 (stearman) is the Primary trainer

that's the (reverse) order of the planes in which fighter pilots trained

in WWII

Yeah military ops have whole families of "trainer" aircraft

@casey/@rbp last I heard the FAA had some pretty specific ideas about using the mixture to simulate engine failures in piston aircraft. (Specific like "NO.")

definitely no

not sure if its an FAA requirement or what

Something about not wanting to reduce the value of scrap aluminum or something

@rbp Yeah I don't know if it's anywhere "regulatory" - I vaguely recall it might have been in the PTS but I could be wrong

(and that would be regulatory on examiners, but not necessarily instructors)

@voretaq7 our policy where I instructed was to use mixture to fail the engine and not to use the fuel cutoff

that was back in 2004

i've never gotten a mixture or fuel cut. just throttle.

actually, now that I think of it I think it was the throttle we used, not mixture

its been tooooooooooooooo long

the idea of using the mixture (or fuel valve) to simulate a failure is just crazy to me. I know the engine will almost certainly start back up, but why tempt fate?

(At least I don't have to worry about an instructor using the fuel valve for a failure in the Cherokee: They'd have to put their head in my lap to reach the valve)

its tricky in a copter because you can't see the instructor's hand move to the collective/throttle

@voretaq7 I've heard of "road head" but never "sky head"

@voretaq7 in our case the simulated failure was followed up as a real failure, ending with a shutdown engine and feathered prop. The seminole was pretty docile on one engine and at 4500' (our floor for engine out practice) on nice days it could maintain altitude. On bad days the sink rate wasn't too bad either

@DanHulme Don't distract me when I'm landing. :P

@casey The Seminole at the flight school decided to pull its own engine-failure-on-takeoff drill on someone a year or so ago. Only it wasn't "simulated".

@casey bad = WX? or MX?

WX. too hot and we'd sink a bit

(Shiny new oil cooler let go and the engine quickly and efficiently emptied the contents of its sump into the nacelle, then ceased operation.)

@voretaq7 i hope they weren't practicing engine out procedures with the other one ;)

@falstro Fortunately not. Also fortunately they returned to the field without further incident.

does lnafzinger ever show up here

@rbp sometimes

it's been a while though I think they're keeping him busy :)

ok, i left a comment

Its snowinggggg :(

yeah, like crazy here

FUCKING GROUNDHOG!

I want more snow :(

@falstro We have a serious problem now though.

Today is Groundhog Day. If the groundhog goes back in his hole we get a long winter.

Today is also Candlemas. If the weather on Candlemas is shitty it's supposed to be an early spring.

Our local groundhog crawled back in his hole, but it is undeniably shitty outside (snow, cold, icy).

I'm not a groundhog but it seems like there would be the opposite connection between how bad the weather is and the groundhog wanting to go back in its hole.

I suppose this way at least one will be right. Unless spring is right on time.

@fooot Spring is like a wizard: It is never late, neither is it early. It arrives precisely when it means to.

Groundhog Day was invented so weather forecasters could have a scapegoat to direct the public's rage at during the nastiest part of the (North American) winter..

Silly groundhogs.

Tasty groundhogs.

We should quit using groundhogs for weather predictions. Let's get an adorable capybara instead!

how do you cook a squirrel?

you put the squirrel and a rock in a pot of boiling water

when the rock is tender, the squirrel is cooked

@rbp You're killing the squirrel wrong, that's your problem.

First catch the squirrel in an old burlap sack and bash it against a tree until it stops moving. THEN cook the squirrel.

ooh, now we have snow too

@casey -- taking pax into the sim for a V1 engine fire drill = AWESOME :D I'd love to be there!

also, density altitude's a real nasty one -- always brings to mind Terry's running-out-of-runway reduced-power-takeoff near-mishap in Honolulu