English Language Learners

Freddy

6:36 AM

Hello everyone

Damkerng T.

6:48 AM

@Freddy Hello!

Damkerng T.

12:30 PM

Sentence of the day: Ligers tend to have characteristics more like lions than tigers. A creature can be created that’s more like a tiger, though. This offspring of a male tiger and a female lion is called a tigon.

Anonymous

12:47 PM

@DamkerngT. Oh, hybridization is interesting!

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, a horse and... a donkey?

Oh, the image says zebroidfoal.

Anonymous

Zebroid

A zebroid (also zedonk, zorse, zebra mule, zonkey, and zebrule) is the offspring of any cross between a zebra and any other equine: essentially, a zebra hybrid. In most cases, the sire is a zebra stallion. Offspring of a donkey sire and zebra dam, called a zebra hinny, or donkra, do exist but are rare. Zebroids have been bred since the 19th century. Charles Darwin noted several zebra hybrids in his works. == Types == Zebroid is the generic name for all zebra hybrids. The different hybrids are generally named using a portmanteau of the sire's name and the dam's name. There is generally no ...

Anonymous

> A zebroid (also zedonk, zorse, zebra mule, zonkey, and zebrule) is the offspring of any cross between a zebra and any other equine: essentially, a zebra hybrid. In most cases, the sire is a zebra stallion. Offspring of a donkey sire and zebra dam, called a zebra hinny, or donkra, do exist but are rare.

Damkerng T.

I think the sentence is also a hybrid of some kind.

Anonymous

12:52 PM

A good example of the -oid derivational affix meaning "similar to"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat A-ha! Humanoid is the first one came to my mind!

user116848

Good evening!

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar Hiya!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Hey!

user116848

Hybrid sounds scary!

user116848

12:54 PM

:)

Damkerng T.

A lot of cars are hybrid!

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Hello! It's morning here.

Anonymous

Although I suppose a lot of people would still consider it evening, if they'd been up long enough :-)

Anonymous

It's now approaching five in the morning.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I'd've thought you'd've thought of android!

user116848

12:56 PM

@snailboat It is 6 PM here :)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Android would come close after Humanoid!

Anonymous

There are lots of examples of -oid. For example, before a meteor becomes a meteor, it's called a meteoroid!

Anonymous

After it lands, it becomes meteorite, with the -ite affix indicating a kind of mineral

Damkerng T.

Ferrite is the first one came to mind!

Androids would need it. :-)

Anonymous

-ite is very common in names of minerals (rocks, gems, ...)

Anonymous

1:00 PM

As in alexandrite

Damkerng T.

Nice name!

Anonymous

Earlier, I wanted to put a before meteorite, and I wanted to capitalize Alexandrite just now

Anonymous

I always wonder if I'm teaching my own language poorly :-)

Anonymous

When it comes to less common stuff, I'm not usually quite so sure, even in English!

Damkerng T.

Don't worry. All errors *are belong to us.

Anonymous

1:01 PM

@DamkerngT. Hee

user116848

@snailboat Nice sentence structure. I am pasting it in my English folder in computer.

Anonymous

That's become an idiom of sorts!

Anonymous

It only has a star if you're trying to parse it as though it's not pre-formed in the lexicon

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I thought it was only popular among gamers!

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Yay! I've created an interesting specimen!

Anonymous

1:03 PM

@DamkerngT. Well, it doesn't mean everyone knows it.

Anonymous

My point is just that although it's ungrammatical as a string of words (no one puts words together that way, as you correctly pointed out with your star), the people who do use it treat it as a pre-formed lexical chunk

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Although memes have a short half-life.

Anonymous

And that one is now ancient in internet years.

Anonymous

I collect interesting examples of Japanese.

Damkerng T.

1:05 PM

Probably more than a decade, I think!

Anonymous

And sometimes of English.

Anonymous

There've been countless times when I've read or heard something that people teach is ungrammatical, only to find out there was more to the story when I investigated more thoroughly!

Damkerng T.

I found one yesterday, What is the last thing you ordered takeaway? -- which gave me a little headache.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I translate that to Snailboat American English as "What is the last thing you ordered for delivery?"

Damkerng T.

I mean, it sounds perfectly natural, but I don't want to analyze it.

Anonymous

1:08 PM

But I don't know if I understood it right.

Anonymous

Is takeaway where you go there and pick it up?

Anonymous

It sounds like it is.

Anonymous

So then my translation would be wrong and it would be:

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It does.

Anonymous

"What is the last thing you ordered that you had to go and pick up from the place you ordered it from?"

Anonymous

1:09 PM

Which is admittedly on the prolix side.

Damkerng T.

@DamkerngT. I don't agree. Iis a false distinction. Stop to Y really means Stop Xing to Y. Teaching stop to Y gives learners the false idea that stop can have an infinitive as a complement. It can't. The to Y phrase is just some extra information. It is that same thing as I studied to improve my English. The phrase to improve my English is just a bit of extra information - it has nothing to do with the verb study. If you teach students 'infinitives of purpose' then you don't need to teach this false distinction about stop! And your students won't get confused :) — Araucaria 11 mins ago

I just got an interesting comment.

user4550

hi

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Right, I recall explaining on ELL some time ago that the to-phrase is an adjunct of purpose

user116848

@snailboat " I'd've thought you would think of android!" is also okay in this sense, right?

user4550

I was threatened with my life...does this mean "my life was in danger?"

Anonymous

1:10 PM

@user4550 I don't know, is it a sentence you invented?

user4550

yeah

threaten with ones life

Anonymous

Yeah, it would mean that

user4550

was my sentence wrong?

Damkerng T.

I don't know if it's wrong, but I think it sounds weird.

Anonymous

I don't want to say it's wrong, but it sounds just a little bit unfamiliar to me

Anonymous

1:12 PM

Maybe it's fine. I don't know.

Anonymous

Feel free to ask someone else :-)

Anonymous

But, just so you know

Anonymous

When you ask what something means, it carries the implication that you aren't the one who said it

Anonymous

Which makes it a rather different question

user116848

Snail what you think about my question above?

user4550

1:14 PM

I see

THank you

Anonymous

@Arrowfar I guess it's okay

Anonymous

My initial reaction was to put the sentence back the way I had it :-)

Anonymous

I had to think about it

Anonymous

People always ask such hard questions!

user116848

Yeah, that is hard :-)

Damkerng T.

1:16 PM

It's just that they usually come from a different set of assumptions.

Anonymous

Every speaker has their own version of English, whether they're native or not, and we're all biased toward our own ways of speaking

user116848

nods

Damkerng T.

"The phrase to improve my English is just a bit of extra information - it has nothing to do with the verb study." -- Hmm... That's interesting; I think CGEL must have analyzed some to-infinitives as adjunct and some as something else. Judging from what Araucaria said, I think their answer implied that remember to X/ forget to X aren't adjuncts.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, that's right, CGEL analyzes some to-infinitival clauses as adjuncts and some as complements

Damkerng T.

I guess they must have good reasons doing so.

Anonymous

1:21 PM

Yes, complements generally have selectional requirements whereas adjuncts do not

Damkerng T.

(I'm still gauging it whether it's useful to teach adjuncts and complements to learners.)

Anonymous

You can see individual verbs pick to or -ing in their complements

Anonymous

And you have to memorize which takes which

Anonymous

That's what StoneyB is always saying about licensing

Damkerng T.

I remember him saying licensing!

Anonymous

1:22 PM

But you can add an adjunct of purpose to just about anything it's semantically compatible with

Anonymous

A verb which only licenses an -ing complement can still take an adjunct of purpose, and one of the forms an adjunct of purpose can take is a to-infinitival clause

Anonymous

There are other forms: in order to works just as well, generally speaking

Damkerng T.

I still can't resolve this: "Stop to Y really means Stop Xing to Y. Teaching stop to Y gives learners the false idea that stop can have an infinitive as a complement."

At least I think I disagree with that.

Anonymous

I didn't read the whole thread.

Anonymous

I think it's worth teaching both stop X-ing and stop to X

Anonymous

1:25 PM

Then you can explain about adjuncts of purpose

Damkerng T.

"Stop to Y really means Stop Xing to Y" even sounds fishy to me.

(That thought'd never crossed my mind. -- That we have to understand "stop to do something" as "stop doing something to do something".)

Anonymous

In "He stopped to smoke", "to smoke" is an infinitive. The difference is not in the meaning of to, but whether the phrase is an adjunct or a complement. — snailboat Nov 19 '13 at 22:22

Anonymous

There's my version.

Anonymous

Not terribly helpful here, maybe. :-)

Anonymous

Oh, I left another comment earlier there

Anonymous

1:29 PM

Yes, what Kaz says is right. Complements are licensed by their head, and stop licenses smoking but not to smoke. You can use to smoke, but as an adjunct rather than a complement. Unfortunately, you have to memorize which verbs license which kinds of complements. — snailboat Nov 15 '13 at 14:41

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I'm thinking about it. It's a difficult question.

Anonymous

I think it's more or less true

Anonymous

If you stop at the grocery store to pick up some food, you've stopped your driving or walking or whatever you were doing to go from point A to point B.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It's more or less true indeed, but it's like most explanations that use ellipsis. I think it's unnecessary.

Anonymous

It's something contained in the semantics of stop, though, rather than ellipsis

Anonymous

1:31 PM

There are no words left out

Anonymous

> The rain stopped.

Anonymous

You could come up with something like falling being omitted, but there's really no need

Anonymous

Still, Araucaria said "means", he didn't say "X-ing is ellipted".

Anonymous

I'm on the fence as to whether that's the best way to put it

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I wonder if any students in their class won't get confused by that.

Anonymous

1:34 PM

I can't say

Anonymous

I'm not a very good teacher, myself

Damkerng T.

All in all, I think they focus more on syntax, and I focus more on meaning.

Anonymous

I mean, not to say he's not a good teacher

Anonymous

Just that I'm not in a position to come up with the best form of pedagogy myself.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Syntax is the fun part!

Damkerng T.

1:34 PM

Is it a male name?

Anonymous

No

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It can be fun! Though I think it shouldn't come before meaning.

Anonymous

The name Araucaria has a form that suggests its bearer is female, but Araucaria is nonetheless male

Damkerng T.

Ah, I take it that you somehow know the fact. :-)

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

1:36 PM

I don't usually like to make assumptions as to whether people online are male or female

Anonymous

A lot of people do. I don't understand why

Anonymous

Around these parts, people very often assume people online are male.

Anonymous

On other sites, people assume everyone is female.

Damkerng T.

I usually assume either male or female when their avatar is obvious.

Anonymous

I have yet to be part of any large community where people don't make assumptions one way or the other

Damkerng T.

1:37 PM

@snailboat LOL

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, yes, I just mean in the absence of evidence

Anonymous

Names are often, but not always, good evidence.

Anonymous

When you interact with people from other cultures, things can get confusing, especially if a name is male in one culture and female in another!

Anonymous

Or if you're simply unfamiliar with the sorts of names used in, say, England

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

1:39 PM

A number of ELLers aren't familiar with common names used in English.

Anonymous

Which is understandable since there's just so many!

Damkerng T.

A movie (which I think they just meant it as a joke) I watched recently has a lead character named Barbara. :-)

Anonymous

Oh? Why a joke?

Anonymous

You don't mean the Barbara character is a male?

Anonymous

That would be surprising. :-)

Damkerng T.

1:40 PM

A female asked if he was bullied in the school; and he said he was okay.

Yes, he was a Barbara he, after his mother or grandmother. Now I'm not very sure.

Anonymous

Here's a webcomic about a girl named Bruno: brunostrip.com/wp/?p=51

Damkerng T.

LOL

A fat cat on the TV!

Anonymous

His name is Cat.

Damkerng T.

LOL!

user4550

Before you get to the beach, you have run the gauntlet of shouting souvenir sellers and dirty snack bars.

I found this in a dictionary

but isn't it odd?

I'd say "you have to run ..."

Anonymous

1:48 PM

Odd in what way?

user4550

not "Hva erun"

Anonymous

Ah, I see

user4550

the sentence sounds so unnatural without context

Anonymous

What's the context?

user4550

mine sounds more natural as a stand alone sentence

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/run+the+gauntlet

an example sentence

so

no context

Anonymous

1:49 PM

I think have and have to are both okay but mean different things

user4550

yeah...but have...sounds odd as a standalone sentence

Damkerng T.

It's reproduced from Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms.

Found the book on Google Books. (p.144) It's not a typo.

user4550

i know that its not a typo

it doesn't ring natural- at least to me.

Anonymous

I think that when you read example sentences, you have to imagine the context it was taken from

Anonymous

Ideally, each example sentence in every dictionary would have some context with it

Anonymous

1:55 PM

But practically speaking, that's not really possible

Anonymous

Sentences aren't really ever standalone

Anonymous

@user4550 It's an interesting example.

Anonymous

When I first read it, I think I mentally inserted to

Anonymous

And I see your point

Anonymous

I'd be reluctant to say there's something actually wrong with the sentence myself, though

Anonymous

2:02 PM

Well, I'd prefer contracted 've, but that's not a matter of "right" versus "wrong"

user4550

I see

thank you for your insight

Anonymous

Thanks, I don't have much, but I try to share it anyway ;-)

Anonymous

I have a headache right now, so I can't concentrate well enough to study

user116848

He said, “I think you are wrong”
When we put this in Indirect speech will it be:

user116848

> He said that he thought I was wrong

Damkerng T.

2:15 PM

It'd typically be done that way.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Thanks--nods

Anonymous

Yes, with that often omitted

Anonymous

Backshift is optional if the usual conditions are met: "He said he thinks I'm wrong!"

Anonymous

Of course, sometimes you can cut out the middleman: "He said I was wrong!"

Anonymous

But then you're changing what he said somewhat :-)

Damkerng T.

2:17 PM

"He thinks I'm wrong" is another variation.

user116848

Thanks guys!

user116848

Sometimes basic stuff seems complex to me. I don't know why :-)

user116848

Writer's block I guess lol.

Anonymous

Oh, what are you writing?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, that's a good alternative!

Damkerng T.

2:21 PM

@snailboat I like "Good one" better. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I was afraid it could be taken as meaning I thought it was a joke!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Nope. "Good one" makes me feel like I'm having a real conversation. :-)

Anonymous

My brain's sentence generator's a bit on the fritz today. It's all the headache-addlement.

user116848

@snailboat Not at the moment. But when I make such sentences even in my mind sometimes I get stuck ;-)

Anonymous

What sortsa writing topics do they have over at the Overlook Hotel?

user116848

2:23 PM

They give random topics there.

user116848

They even let us decide to choose any topic.

Anonymous

How does it work? Do you have a time limit?

user116848

Yep. 10 minutes.

Anonymous

It's NaNoWriMo, y'know.

Anonymous

Oh, man! Ten minutes! That's . . . pretty short.

Damkerng T.

2:24 PM

@snailboat Oh, it's this month!

Anonymous

I can spare ten minutes of my uber-valuable time.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes! Quick! Write a Na!

Anonymous

Wait, no, don't do that! Write a No!

user116848

@snailboat Yeah, Kit is doing the NaNoWriMo this month.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yup! Write a No in November!

Anonymous

2:26 PM

Right now I'm sparing all sorts of minutes because my brain is on upside down.

Damkerng T.

Can I write a Po instead?

Anonymous

You can write all the Pos you want!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

user116848

Have you guys ever tried NaNo? @DamkerngT. @snailboat

Damkerng T.

NaNo? Me? Never.

user116848

2:27 PM

@DamkerngT. LOL

Anonymous

No, I've never written long-form fiction in a fixed amount of time.

Anonymous

My brain needs its backburner time.

user116848

Me neither. I'll try it someday.

Anonymous

It processes the ideas while I do other stuff.

user116848

Playing musical instruments?

Anonymous

2:27 PM

I can write as much as I want, but . . .

Anonymous

I try to concentrate whenever I'm playing musical instruments.

Anonymous

It's too easy to just play and not pay attention to it

Anonymous

That's how it is with any activity practiced to automaticity.

Anonymous

But you'll only really improve if you focus when you play.

user116848

Yeah, it needs concentration to play it good.

Anonymous

2:29 PM

If you play without concentrating, you'll make mistakes―and you'll practice those mistakes and repeat them!

user116848

Even sports are like that.

Anonymous

It's the same thing.

Damkerng T.

I'm toying with the idea... of answering questions in poems this winterbash.

(Not just me, I mean, everyone!)

user116848

@DamkerngT. Amusing idea! :)

Anonymous

My headache is going away.

user116848

2:30 PM

@DamkerngT. But bad idea! :)

Anonymous

Now what excuse am I going to use for all the silly things I say? :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Good news!

@Arrowfar Oh, I just think it could be fun! :-)

Anonymous

►

Damkerng T.

Good news, everyone!

user116848

Um...what's that? :p

Damkerng T.

2:33 PM

Futurama, I think. :P

user116848

Oh, right.

user116848

So I was hesitating calling my lapse in memory the brain fart instead of Writer's block.

user116848

Oh, this is funny:

user116848

The 13 Most Common Brain Farts in Human History

Anonymous

12 happens to me all the time if I haven't slept enough.

Anonymous

2:43 PM

I'm only vaguely familiar with the existence of Chic-Fil-A

Anonymous

I guess it's a restaurant that's closed on Sundays

Anonymous

4 happens to me when I've been spending time with a language other than English

user116848

This happens to me a lot:

user116848

> Forgetting what you were going to search on Google

user116848

:-)

Anonymous

2:45 PM

Yes, that was the one I referred to as 12

Anonymous

I was too lazy to type it :-)

user116848

haha

user116848

Who forgets their own age? lol

Damkerng T.

Oh, they use "brain farts" differently.

user116848

It is the temporary lapse in the memory due to stress etc.

user116848

2:47 PM

It happens to me in exams. It sucks!

Damkerng T.

I think I'm more familiar with "brain cramp", the sense they use.

Anonymous

I'm not too familiar with "brain cramp"

Damkerng T.

Hey, #7 just happened to me last week!

user116848

Oh, I found some interesting questions regarding this:

user116848

31

Q: A little brain fart

What is a nicer, less immature saying? I love using 'A Freudian slip', but that is only applicable in certain situations.

phrase-requests

user116848

2:50 PM

13

Q: What word or phrase means "a loss of what was on your mind"?

Sometimes, in the middle of a conversation, a "loss of mind" can affect the speaker. What is the word for that situation and that person ? Are there more specific terms or phrases than: the loss of mind (or) empty mindedness?

meaning word-choice single-word-requests phrases expressions

user116848

1

Q: "brain-cramp" vs "blank-out"

When mind lapses instantly I call it blank-out. Recently I have come across brain-cramp and it is providing almost same meaning as blank-out. Are both same ? Cramp word is not playing big heavy dice here? Since English is not my native language that is why I am asking this.

meaning differences

Damkerng T.

#5 happened to me sometimes. Not much lately.

Anonymous

I wonder which dialects most typically say brain cramp

Damkerng T.

Considering that I knew it, probably BrE. :-)

user116848

I just wanted to ask that does this phrase look offending?

Anonymous

2:52 PM

There were examples in COCA, too

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Does what phrase look offensive?

Damkerng T.

I'd say "cramp" is less offensive than the other.

Anonymous

@user4550 I guess, but it sounds pretty strange

user116848

@snailboat Yeah :-)

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Ah, that was a wh-question, not a polar question

user4550

2:53 PM

well is like well past 12

right?

Anonymous

@user4550 Yes

user4550

so completely satisfy right?

Anonymous

@Arrowfar "I just wanted to ask, does that phrase look offensive?"

Anonymous

@user4550 Well is an intensifier meaning "to a great extent". It doesn't mean "completely"

Anonymous

Some people might avoid brain fart, I suppose

Anonymous

2:55 PM

I don't generally say it myself

Anonymous

I don't think it's offensive

Damkerng T.

@snailboat raising hand

Anonymous

I'm assuming you were referring to that phrase ("brain fart") even though you said this

Anonymous

That's why I changed this to that

user116848

@snailboat Oh, sorry. I meant does "brain fart" look offensive?

user4550

2:55 PM

Thanks

user116848

That's why I was hesitating saying it here. So, I put in the dictionary meaning too :-)

Anonymous

"Does that phrase look offensive?" isn't a subordinate clause and can't be marked with that

user116848

nods

Anonymous

If you wanted to use a subordinate interrogative, it wouldn't have subject-auxiliary inversion so do wouldn't be present, and the subordinator would be either if or whether: "I just wanted to ask whether that phrase looks offensive [or not]."

user4550

she stumbled over remembering when Sam was born and even had a brief brain fart where she forgot his name.

Read more: http://www.crushable.com/2012/09/26/other-stuff/jennifer-garner-ellen-degeneres-video-bad-mother-hollywood-777/#ixzz3JL1O707n

Damkerng T.

2:58 PM

LOL

user116848

@snailboat That is helpful. Thanks.

Anonymous

What you were doing is totally fine, though, if you just make it an independent clause and separate it with something like a comma. (But then you can't introduce it with that, because it's not subordinate.)

Transcript for