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Anonymous
1:52 AM
Searching online, I see that both quintigrade and quinquigrade are rare
 
Anonymous
Frellesvig uses the latter for 五段
 
Anonymous
I wonder why not quinquegrade
 
@snailboat I wonder if the distinction I was trying to draw in my last answer was between ILP and stative SLPs. 旅館がある seems like a stative SLP, while ことがある and 価値がある seem like ILPs... hmm.
 
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie I still haven't really internalized that distinction at an intuitive level
 
Would need to think of more examples probably.
I really need someone to verify that my judgments aren't entirely wrong before trying to come up with the theory behind it though.
 
Anonymous
2:24 AM
Oh good, I still have this flowchart handy :-)
 
Anonymous
 
Anonymous
Not that it's of immediate use to you here--I just wanted to post it so I can stare at it :-)
 
Anonymous
(From 日本語文法ハンドブック)
 
Anonymous
2:56 AM
BTW, in that chart 総記 is "exhaustive listing" (versus 中立叙述 "neutral description")
 
I just got some dominos. I blame you! (Actually, myself!)
 
Anonymous
Pizza is contagious!
 
Anonymous
3:07 AM
When you see or hear about someone else eating pizza
 
Anonymous
Your pizza neurons fire.
 
Anonymous
Or pizzons, as neuroscientists call them
 
Anonymous
It's like when someone yawns or talks about yawning in front of you and you suddenly feel the need to yawn
 
Anonymous
There's nothing you can do. Pizza is the only way forward.
 
3:36 AM
So when's the game coming out?
 
Tim
4:04 AM
Hi, I would like to offer this up for bounty. I think it is a legitimate question wonder if anyone would be good enough to offer any comments/suggestions for improvement? At the moment there is only one answer. It is helpful but I would like to get more input.
4
Q: Relative clause - noun - copula structure: What does it mean? How can we translate it?

TimI have two examples of this structure which does not obviously correspond to a pattern in English although it is quite common. I'd like to know what it means, why it is used and how it should be translated (because if I can do that I know I understand it). Example 1 I heard this on a TV series ...

(I just proposed pizza for lunch but got rejected.)
 
 
2 hours later…
6:06 AM
@snailboat that's a very nice chart
 
 
1 hour later…
7:15 AM
I think I must disagree with Darius, that I tend to use 旅館はありますか as well as ~ことはある, ~価値はある, and ~時間はありますか.
 
I tend to use them too.
 
It seems that は is more neutral than が in questions. Although people tend to omit any particles.
 
But メルボルンに旅館がありますか? seems markedly more wrong compared to the は version than メルボルンに行ったことがありますか? to seems compared to the は version.
To me, of course.
 
I think they are equally valid sentence, just we tend to use は. Using が will convey more subtle meanings.
For example, you don't really think メルボルンに旅館がある, or you have a hunch that メルボルンに旅館がある, or you heard メルボルンに旅館がある, etc.
Many "stative" verbs/adjective tend to be used like this, such as ~はすき? ~はある? ~はほしい? ~は見える?
は is just a neutral question.
 
I guess what I'm saying is that メルボルンに旅館がありますか? really needs context like that for me, while メルボルンに行ったことがありますか? seems neutral to me. Which could be wrong.
 
7:22 AM
However, when you answer the question, you will almost always use が. ~が好き, ~がある, ~がほしい, ~が痛い, ~が見える. So I think the function of は in questions and non-questions are really different.
>メルボルンに行ったことがありますか
I often see this sentence.
In fact,
> 近くに郵便局がありますか。
>  りんごが好きですか
Are sentences from textbooks.
Native editors choose が, for reasons I don't know.
Maybe they just don't want to confuse learners.
But the rules of は in interrogative sentences are different.
 
Yes, I completely agree with that sentiment.
btw, りんごが好きですか actually sounds more neutral than りんごは好きですか? to me. I think.
Been thinking about this so long that I don't even trust my own judgments any more.
I sometimes wonder how non-native speakers who don't puzzle over this stuff for hours on end manage to get it right. (Do they?). I suppose with enough time and immersion anything is possible...
I changed my mind. They sound equally neutral. Argh. Probably time to stop thinking about this.
 
Tim
7:38 AM
@DariusJahandarie 非回答者's answer does not answer the OP's question because he does not tell us what "enough reason to use が” would be, just that [instinctively] as a native speaker he does not feel it is justified. If I may say so, your answer on the second scenario sounds more like intuitive comment, rather than the application of an objective principle that falls down because does not answer the question. From my perspective, the OP's question contains unintended ambiguities.
 
Do you mean "your answer on the second は" as opposed to "on the second scenario"? I only said a single sentence specifically about the second scenario.
Anyways, my answer is at best incomplete. I'm still not confident about some of my judgments either, so it's probably wrong too, though none of the native speakers have commented on it.
But I mainly just wanted to give a shot at answering at what type of sentences が is okay in.
 
Tim
I mean your answer on the second scenario.
 
This is literally all I wrote about the second scenario: "In the second dialogue it's optional." Is that what you're talking about?
Maybe I should have wrote "The second は in the sentence" instead of just "the second は".
 
Tim
I am talking about whether 旅館 in the should scenario take が or は. You have said it should take は by default.
 
7:53 AM
I said ○ありますか should be はありますか by default regardless of scenario. I was not just talking about the second scenario.
And then I specified some cases where I think it is necessary/okay to have it as がありますか without any special context.
I didn't make this very clear, but I just edited my answer so hopefully it's clearer, that I think there are contexts which can make pretty much any sentence, including the provided one, use がありますか?.
 
Tim
In you answer you said "~○ありますか? should be は by default. The only cases it doesn't need to be are:" and then started to give cases. The first case (a wh-question) is straight forward but for other cases it is a matter of when introducing a new topic to the discussion.
 
As far as contexts go, it's completely obvious that you can use が in a rhetorical situation like 「メルボルンに旅館がありますか…」, but I can't really convince myself one way or another about non-rhetorical situations. Yang mentioned some believable contexts just a moment ago (chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/17546889#17546889), but I'm really not sure.
@Tim For me it's not related to new/old topics. I've never once understood that analysis of how things work.
I was honestly really hoping that @非回答者 or another native speaker would provide feedback so I could give a more accurate answer (or remove an entirely inaccurate answer), but it hasn't happened.
I need to run to bed, it's 4am, talk to you later.
 
Tim
8:11 AM
Sure. Yangs comments takes us into different areas. The OP cited a beginners text and then asked about introducing new/related topics. I suspect that for a
native speaker, and an experienced speaker, these become harder to explain because they are done intuitively but jkerians "most viewed" response on this give some insight. I try to adapt a set of principles based on these.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:11 AM
@snailboat I bet you'd enjoy this: japanesemusicid.com/perform-music-station-tanggal-25-juli-2014. (Look for "Sayaka Kanda – Special Medley" on the page.)
 
@YangMuye I think there are quite a few questions on the internet asked by people (I assume JP natives) teaching Japanese on why が is used instead of は there. For example, if you search 近くに郵便局がありますか。
 
 
2 hours later…
Tim
1:06 PM
@YangMuye In those cases academics like Susumu Kuno consider the が to be an object marker. That makes them different from case cited by the OP.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:16 PM
@Tim hmm? Pretty sure that's a different case...
が as object marker comes in when you're using it with 形容詞, stative verbs, and the posessive-version of ある... I don't think it applies to 3to5s example sentence there.
 
2:32 PM
TIL there's a Japanese word for smoking in bed: 寝煙草
 
Tim
2:50 PM
@jkerian Yes - that is my point. Yang Muye cited a number of cases (~がすき etc) which were different.
 
Well, すき and ほしい always imply a particular subject or actor, but ある and 見える do not.
> ここから富士山は見えますか
 
Tim
3:35 PM
@YangMuye In the text I cited (Kuno) ある and 見える are seen to take が as an object marker (p90 of The Structure of the Japanese Language)
 
 
7 hours later…
Anonymous
10:41 PM
@Tim Martin does discuss some differences between Japanese and English in relative clause use in his chapter on "adnominalization" (he generally refers to putting all sorts of things before a noun as "adnominalization", including what would commonly be called a relative clause)
 
Anonymous
I don't think I have an answer for you at the moment but there are some bits that might interest you nonetheless
 
Anonymous
> Japanese authors often make skillful use of adnominalizations to carry along their narrative, where the English translator would prefer conjunctions. [...] A sentence starting off 家へ帰った太郎が… (or the like) is often to be translated 'When he got home, Taro ...' or 'Once home, Taro ...' instead of 'Taro, who had got home ...'.
 
Anonymous
(Martin 1975, A Reference Grammar of Japanese, p.623)
 
Anonymous
I think the relatives in your question are another example of where practices differ and it's hard for me to say exactly why
 
Tim
11:23 PM
@snailboat Thanks. I might add "adnominalisation" to the question.
 
Anonymous
11:39 PM
It's possible Martin talks specifically about the case in your question. I haven't figured out how to search for it, though. (I use Google Books to search Martin's book--it's better than using his index :-)
 
Anonymous
I don't know what you'd call it. "Relative copular construction" maybe, but I can't find any reference of anyone calling it that.
 
Anonymous
Can we bold stuff in here if we use dashes? Like はな-は
 
Anonymous
Oh, good, we can
 
Anonymous
> はな-は かよ-に 何-も 言えなかった → [ ___ かよ-に 何-も 言えない ] はな-でした
 
Anonymous
If we translated literally (for some reason)
 
Anonymous
11:48 PM
Then we would have a noun + copula predicate, which we can do in English too, but English needs a dummy subject it to be inserted
 
Anonymous
> It was a Hana [ that couldn't say anything to Kayo ].
 
Anonymous
Which sounds silly... :-)
 
Anonymous
Brandon's answer uses dummy there instead:
 
Anonymous
> There was Hana
 
Anonymous
> There was Hana, unable to say anything to Kayo.
 
Anonymous
11:52 PM
Now we replaced a relative clause with an appositive clause, but if you're a believer in wh-is deletion, then you think it's secretly a relative clause:
 
Anonymous
> There was Hana, who was unable to say anything to Kayo.
 

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