/dev/chat - 2014-08-16

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1:15 AM

discovered debmarshall today code.google.com/p/debmarshal

seems cool for keeping local track of the repositories update

1 hour later…

2:43 AM

@derobert there isn't a specific bug for the issue, it got a massive merge from upstream around '12 that solved the issue bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/btrfs-tools/+bug/894456

@Braiam That's still a good answer. "This is a known bug, you need to upgrade to btrfs-tools X to fix".

@derobert if it was recent... maybe... but "asked Jun 9 '13 at 10:29" :(

@Braiam Odd that the question was asked in Jun 2013 if the upgrade was in 2012.

@derobert Mint 14 was released in 20 November 2012, and 15 "29 May 2013"

I hate this...

it was "Fix released" in 2012-05-25, so the question shouldn't exist in first place, unless it got sru'd

sru?

2:57 AM

Stable Release Update

Ubuntu's repos (ergo Mint's) are Testing freezed

you need a very good excuse to release a new update of a package

Still, there were a few releases between when that fix was released and when the question was asked. So a SRU shouldn't even be required...

Unless the question is from a different bug.

yup, bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/btrfs-tools/+bug/1013265, the version of the package wasn't in precise repos at the time of the question

and possibly still isn't bugs.launchpad.net/precise-backports/+bug/1016438

is that package even in debian?

precise is LTS, isn't it? So then it'd still be a relevant question

@Braiam btrfs-tools? yes

packages.debian.org/search?keywords=btrfs-tools

@derobert actually mint 15 ceased being supported since january

@derobert no, the apt-btrfs-asdfdf

apt-btrfs-snapshot isn't.

I wonder if the question applies to Ubuntu, not just Mint? Ubuntu Precise is still supported, I think...

3:09 AM

nope, just mint, precise and trusty use recent versions

20 mins ago, by Braiam

I hate this...

I can't figure out exactly what happened....

7 hours later…

10:27 AM

37

A: Can we make this meta site work for mentoring?

In some way or another, I knew that this was coming. I was foolish to think that it would get to the commitment phase before it did, though. The Problem I really think that Stack Overflow Academy was a good solution to a messy problem: how do we teach people to use the site without them knowin...

^ this apply to many, many things I keep saying about how new users actually behave

10:44 AM

@derobert Is this something you have run into? paste.debian.net/115853

I ran into this just now, and was having a chat with the good folks on #debian-mentors, but I'm still a bit fuzzy what is going on here. This was posted by one of them.

10:58 AM

This looks like the same issue.

3

Q: When declaring the pattern rule as PHONY, it is not triggered

I have the following recursive makefile: .PHONY: all clean %.subdir: $(MAKE) -C src $* $(MAKE) -C dict $* all: all.subdir clean: clean.subdir and it works fine: $ make all make -C src all make[1]: Entering directory `/or-1.3.6-fix/src' make[1]: Nothing to be done for `all'. make[1]...

11:10 AM

"Since it knows that phony targets do not name actual files that could be remade from other files, make skips the implicit rule search for phony targets (see Implicit Rules)."

This looks like the explanation, but I still don't understand the rationale. Implicit searches are only for "actual" files?

7 hours later…

6:13 PM

@FaheemMitha Can't say I've run into that before, but weird unexpected make behaviors have long ago stopped surprising me.

@derobert Hi. Kind of assumed you were on vacation like everyone else. Things are a bit dead on a weekend.

So, can you add anything to what I already know? When I see make I run the other way, but unfortunately Debian uses it...

BTW, wonder if this one is worth keeping open. The poster seems terribly confused.

0

Q: Apt-Get No installation candidate. Can't install anything

So, I am running a MineOS Linux, which is based on Debian turnkey, and the installation was around 250 MB, so probably not all of the commands that come with Linux were installed. I use this to run my minecraft server, and I have a noip account to make a static IP to redirect it my IP. I am goin...

@FaheemMitha I'm not sure what the problem is? Just remove the .PHONY directive?

We aren't a Debian training center here.

@derobert No problem. I just don't understand the rationale.

Or a linux training center.

@derobert having a good weekend?

Actually, the people on #debian-mentors didn't seem to either, though that didn't make me feel much better.

In fact, they first seemed think it would work, then realised it didn't.

@FaheemMitha I'm not sure anyone understand's Make's rationale. AFAIK, it's a mix of the rationales of the many people who have worked on it over many years across countless implementations + a selection of preserved forever bugs from each + weird restrictions from some system last used in 1985.

@FaheemMitha Well, I just got up :-)

@derobert Well, I found a GNU Make bug report suggesting it was a regression. From 2006. But I guess that is not really important.

@derobert Oh.

Well, time to start having a good weekend, then...

I dunno if you want to see the make bug report...

6:20 PM

@FaheemMitha Not really :-P

@derobert :-)

I sort of was hoping someone could explain it to me, but it is no big deal.

make is something you poke with a stick until it works, then at that point you avoid ever touching the Makefile again.

@derobert Sounds real scientific.

Best practices of software engineering and all that. But I use Scons myself. If I see anything involving make, and especially autotools, I run away screaming.

There's a reason there are a ton of make replacements.

So, I'm not very make-educated.

@derobert But, I got the impression from past conversations that you were a bit of a Make expert? Or perhaps just battle-hardened?

But don't let me keep you from your weekend frolicking...

6:24 PM

@FaheemMitha A bit, yes. But make expertise is in picking the right stick to poke it with...

BTW, you should give the new mercurial evolve extension a try. It's pretty nifty. Of course, you need to know mercurial first, but that is a minor detail.

@derobert Sounds dangerous.

@FaheemMitha Well, thankfully the main danger is a console full of incomprehensible errors.

@derobert That's pretty scary.

Nifty. but unfortunately buggy.

It's not that bad. A quick control-L defeats it.

@derobert control-L?

6:28 PM

At least in xterm, that clears the console

@derobert Oh. Ok. Doesn't make the error go away, though.

Working with make isn't that bad, until you try to do something weird with it. Then its frustrating.

@derobert It's pretty limited. I do all sorts of things with scons I can't imagine doing with make.

Yep. Its main advantage is that it's available everywhere.

And there are enough people who know how to use it, at least for basic stuff.

@derobert True. So, exciting plans for the weekend?

6:31 PM

@FaheemMitha Not really.

@derobert Well, I can do basic stuff. Just prefer not to.

BTW, backups were restored successfully.

@FaheemMitha Yep. So if want to write a program with minimal dependencies, I'd use a Makefile. And you'd be able to (for example) add another .c file to the list of things being compiled/linked together.

@derobert True, but nothing more complicated.

not easily, anyway.

so, anyway, you don't have a rationale for that behavior?

Not any better than the ones given as answers on SO.

I've never actually run into that one before...

@derobert Hmm

6:36 PM

/me labels a new make-poking stick

You mean stackoverflow.com/questions/3095569/… ?

Yeah

@derobert ?

Another unexpected make "feature"

@derobert you mean the stuff i just mentioned?

6:40 PM

Yeah. How the .PHONY target broke.

@derobert So you make note of make weirdnesses, then?

@FaheemMitha Well, try to remember them, so that next time it #(!@#*( doesn't work, I have an idea of what it might be.

@derobert probably a good idea. the trouble is you can end up with a head filled with this crap. on the plus side you get to help frustrated people in places like SE, I guess.

@FaheemMitha make has a pretty small WTF surface. Compared to, say, C++.

@derobert Yes, C++ is fairly horrendous. Probably. Another thing I try to stay away from.

if I have a line like

$ echo "evolve=$(echo $(dirname $TESTDIR))/hgext/simple4server.py" >> ./server/.hg/hgrc

in a bash test script, and I have no idea what it is doing, how I make it more chatty?

set -e ?

6:50 PM

set -x might make it more chatty, not sure.

I'm not even seeing the ./server/.hg/hgrc

then you probably have a permission problem or something

@derobert possibly.

I mean, that's ultimately a pretty simple echo "foo" >> file

it just has a few substitutions in it

Well, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. I'm trying to run it by itself.

6:52 PM

And is pretty clearly written weirdly; why is that second echo there?

@derobert dunno

Strikes me as written by someone who didn't quite understand how shell works

$(echo $(dirname $TESTDIR)) does look a little peculiar.

@derobert Perhaps.

And missing quoting.

Yes, Gilles would have a fit.

6:54 PM

echo "evolve=$(dirname "$TESTDIR")/hgext/simple4server.py" >> ./server/.hg/hgrc

I wonder if I am brave enough to try to fix it.

@FaheemMitha <fit>

@derobert OK, I'll try that

@Gilles :-)

(no, I haven't actually read the conversation)

@Gilles this is what you're having a fit over:

6 mins ago, by Faheem Mitha

$ echo "evolve=$(echo $(dirname $TESTDIR))/hgext/simple4server.py" >> ./server/.hg/hgrc

6:59 PM

@Gilles i expected you to be out making merry.

@FaheemMitha why?

@Gilles It's France. Wine, Women, and Song.

Maybe Dancing too.

Damn, the documentation on this python script is lying to me.

Anybody see that notification in U&L is having some problems?

@Gnouc Hmm?

I still see the old statistic when I click on "Achievements"

7:06 PM

@Gnouc Define old.

And don't get any notification when some one comment, or get new upvote ....

It only shows yesterday statistic

today is not!

Oh, right. It keeps showing the same thing as new. I'm seeing that too.

Usually, you only see it once as new.

Maybe report it somewhere?

there was a test of their alternate server recently

did you reload the page?

shift-reload (Ctrl+Shift+R) to make sure all components are force-reloaded

@Gilles: Yes, I did that

Problem still occurs

mm... mine are recent

someone, quick upvote something :P

7:20 PM

The same when I used mobile

I'm in Asia, maybe too far :D

I'm seeing similar issues here.

mm... is this really a duplicated? unix.stackexchange.com/q/119502/41104

Probably something to report on Meta Stack Exchange (the weird issues since the test this morning)

I would probably change DNS's and clearing the cache first

@Braiam Like I said, I'm seeing it to. Nobody else?

1 hour later…

8:45 PM

26

Q: Topbar notifications don't go away

I've read the unread inbox messages several times. Despite the fact that there is no new inbox message, the topbar keeps showing a count of 2 for unread inbox messages. This seems new to me, and unless the change was intended (which seems unlikely), it's a bug. I can repro it consistently on...

bug notifications top-bar

@Braiam Thanks. No idea who Shog is. Sounds like a name for a troll.

In the Tolkien sense, not the annoying sense.

@FaheemMitha D:

Blog - Stack Exchange: Welcome Valued Associate Josh Heyer

Jeff Atwood on March 24, 2011

Our community team has been growing by leaps and bounds:

Robert Cartaino — Palm Bay FL — Apr 19, 2010 Rebecca Chernoff — St. Louis MO — Jan 4, 2011 Dori Smith — Healdsburg CA — Feb 25, 2011

Rebecca Chernoff — St. Louis MO — Jan 4, 2011 Dori Smith — Healdsburg CA — Feb 25, 2011

Dori Smith — Healdsburg CA — Feb 25, 2011

We’re serious about building community — and that means having a full time team dedicated to you. The community team’s role is to participate deeply on our network of Q&A sites and help fig …

@Braiam Oh, I see. Why is it his fault?

Hmm, I guessing that is a joke. Newbie hazing?

@FaheemMitha jsfiddle.net/AYPpF/82/embedded/result

@Braiam That's handy. I'll remember that the next time I'm looking for someone to blame.

9:02 PM

It's @Braiam's fault!

@hichris123 I second that.

AbdulMomen عبدالمؤمن

9:26 PM

Hello

Is it really that RedHat certificate is much more appreciated than Microsoft Windows?

!! is most recent command recall. how about if i want to go 2, 3 etc. commands further back?

@AbdulMomenعبدالمؤمن I doubt anyone here knows or cares (though I could be wrong). Maybe ask in a more specialist forum?

Wow, we don't get many people from Iraq here.

How are things there?

@AbdulMomenعبدالمؤمن More appreciated by whom? It depends on the shop -- if you are looking for jobs, certifications help. It seems to me that Windows certs are more common among Windows admins that Linux/Unix certs are among *nix sysadmins.

1 hour later…

10:45 PM

@Gilles : don't try that. it breaks in a couple of ways. What you want is: echo "evolve=${TESTDIR%/*}/hgext/simple4server.py" >> ./server/.hg/hgrc

@FaheemMitha don't try that. it breaks in a couple of ways. What you want is: echo "evolve=${TESTDIR%/*}/hgext/simple4server.py" >> ./server/.hg/hgrc

I don't know how to delete the one before it.

@mikeserv ok.

@FaheemMitha: actually... I think the only way the other breaks is when $TESTDIR ends in a newline. but, really, echo is probably a bad idea,, too: printf '%s/hgetx/simple4server.py\n' "${TESTDIR%/*}" >>./server....

11:02 PM

This is a cool question:

25

Q: Programming Dichotomies (Literally)

Consider a question written in plain English whose answer involves two reasonably accurate (but potentially clever) words or phrases that can be separated by the word 'and': Q: What are the two sides of a coin? A: heads and tails Q: What are the best ways to travel? A: airplane and jetpa...

My own answer is broken because my question was too awesome for the challenge, it seems.

But Gilles had two very good answers there. I don't even know what that ksh thing does.

11:17 PM

@mikeserv what's up

howdy, @Creek. It's so fucking hot in San Diego today. I almost never run the AC, so I'm just smoldering.

ha, fuck you san diego

yeah, I deserve that.

milk was a bad choice

?

are you typing from the toilet?

11:20 PM

it's when Ron Burgandy hits rock bottom after telling san diego to f off

oh... I never saw the second one. Is that the second one?

1st, but don't waste your time in the second one, I'd rather get my eyelids removed

and they release it twice..I'll never understand

Hmm. I don't remember that part. I always remember the Afternoon Delight part - my favorite.

classic

so apparently there's a hidden secrets of shell coding practices that is tucked away in dark corners of the Internet, and you know all about it?

sigh

@mikeserv Ok, thanks.

11:26 PM

I know...

pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009604599/utilities/…

I just treat the shell differently than others. The shell really sucks at names - it's not very good at storing/referencing data.

It's supposed to be glue - it's primary purpose is to mangle arguments and pass them on. So that's what I do with it. Because it's really good at mangling arguments.

I was blown away at set, as noobish as it is to admit

A lot of people are - terdon is a perl wiz - among many other things - but he asked me the same question a couple months ago.

@FaheemMitha - you're quite welcome.

yea man, and for blah do, I'm like where's the in blah blah, it's crazy

It's $@ - it's always there.

yea that little bastard hides the goods

11:32 PM

You only substitute it when you in ...

it's very sneaky

Maybe. I think it's sad it's not better known... like here. I cried a little.

people are such dicks

I noticed you use test instead of if

is that just for looks?

nah - that's after an edit. At first I didn't get that he wanted the 2: <something> <something> to represent the different strings and thought he wanted 4 args as opposed to 5, so it was wrong at first. Plus, people just don't get it. I prefer answers that are mostly code, because I like to copy+paste stuff, others not as much.

Ummm...? You have to use test with if anyway, right?

Or you mean for a command? I don't use test or if... I just && ||.

It's true or not true and I go from there.

yea, that came out wrong, I see test instead of if [ condition ]

11:40 PM

Oh, I usually use the [ test brackets. Where did I do test?

i thought it was in the email script Q from the other night

Sometimes it's convenient. Like, in bash. You can do test somearg && command $_.

No, I guess I'm crazy

Oh, there? I dunno. I try to explain so others understand. Maybe I thought dude would better get it that way?

yes! there's a popsicle left!

San Diego is a good place to do dancing. Probably.

11:45 PM

fm digs dancing.

mmmm

/me misses West Coast Swing.

google.com/…

@mikeserv I do.

too hot

11:45 PM

Zoot Suit Riot

There's this new invention, called the AC.

ac doesn't work very well at 90 degrees in a dark club full of sweaty drunks

My ac went out in the spring and you'd have thought my wife had just been told she was going to be executed in the morning

@mikeserv I think you misunderstand what I mean by dancing

No drunks.

Lots of beautiful women. And West Coast Swing.

@FaheemMitha:

that I could do

11:49 PM

@mikeserv Overrated.

@mikeserv Not in the Cali heat.

the rain would be nice and cool

hai

i can haz question

ohai

absolutely

It's mathsy.

11:52 PM

@Creek Apparently dance clip swap time.

I have an input number X, and I need a sexy function such that the input number X when multiplied by another number Y, never exceeds cap Z

P.S. Oh, my god.

@FaheemMitha that's funny

@Creek What is?

Discuss.

=D

11:53 PM

Dance clip swap time, the sun's not even down yet

I'm guessing this is from a movie called A Night at The Roxbury. I think I'll give it a miss.

echo $(((x*y=<z)*(x*y)))

@Creek Middle of the night here.

BTW, congrats on 2k.

@FaheemMitha Europe?

@Creek India.

11:55 PM

or... echo $((x*y<=z?(x*y):z))

Take care, guys. I'm off.

bye bye

@FaheemMitha, thanks, it took me a while, I took a haitus later

close but no cigar mikeserv. thanks anyway

what doesn't work?

11:56 PM

@Creek Yes, answering questions is hard work. I think they ought to work on that cupcake idea. That would get motivation up.

The first returns 0 when greater than z, the second returns z when greater than z.

@FaheemMitha or kittens, people love cats for some reason

@Creek - I like mine cause she doesn't shit on the rug.

I need to input say, x=101, y=100, z=10000 and have it return 100

but if i input x = 99, y=100, z=10000 it would return 99

the result of x*y may never exceed z but may be lower

uhh... what does z have to do with either of those?

11:59 PM

100*100 = 10000

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