Not a bar, but plays one on TV

12:31 AM

→ 5 messages moved to Discussion between KRyan and doppelgreener

12:20 PM

@kviiri [glances around suspiciously] [lowers voice] Careful with that anti-teacher talk. You never know when they're listening.

Aaron

We have no need to fear the teachers anymore. We are not in highschool anymore.

kviiri

@BESW At least for every teacher spouting a misconception, there is someone pointing out that "uh, sir, that was debunked like, 80 years ago".

Aaron

College teachers are not really as bad because unlike highschool it is not their job to make sure you pass. Just to teach you the material.

BESW

Wikipedia thinks humans have less hair than most mammals.

Joshua Aslan Smith

disagree

college profs are worse

theres tenure

ande they tend to get more offended when you present/argue ideas against their sensibilities

Aaron

12:23 PM

I meant in general not when you disagree with them. Then they can get pretty scary.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Right but Ive had college professors actively teach with biases but act like they didnt

Aaron

Like a bias toward a person or something else?

Grubermensch

@JoshuaAslanSmith I've had the same in grade school. It's definitely worse down there, because children just believe things.

kviiri

List of common misconceptions

This incomplete list is not intended to be exhaustive. This list corrects erroneous beliefs that are currently widely held about notable topics. Each misconception and the corresponding facts have been discussed in published literature. Note that each entry is formatted as a correction; the misconceptions themselves are implied rather than stated. == History == === Ancient to early modern history === Vomiting was not a regular part of Roman dining customs. In ancient Rome, the architectural feature called a vomitorium was the entranceway through which crowds entered and exited a stadiu...

Praise Wikipedia!

BESW

Oh, man. I could bring out my stories of Comparative Religion.

She had us watch Fiddler on the Roof non-ironically.

kviiri

12:26 PM

I got relatively few misconceptions, but at a fairly good density in some points.

BESW

She taught Hinduism as a religion with fewer schisms in dogma than Christianity, and said Japanese Buddhist monks weren't real Buddhists.

Joshua Aslan Smith

the worst was my philosophy of technology prof

who sort of twisted it into an ethics of technology course

and was very much anti-gun because guns are inherently evil to the point the whole class sorta becaem about that

I then get stuck in a dead elevator with this guy and use my self-defense/utility knife to pry open the doors and get us out

no mention of it

this guy literally would have a debate vs. in class and get classmates to support him, I feel like I remember grading being skewed

in the end I won though because he was arrested and later sentenced to jail for child pornography

BESW

[blink] That escalated quickly.

Grubermensch

Wow

kviiri

The things I hate the most about my teachers' biases were these nationalist undertones in everything. It's not their fault though, it was somewhat official at that point.

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:32 PM

haha I know in the way I just said it out that it sounds like some revenge thing, but it was just karmic in a way

I found out about it years later

@besw I have strong feelings about professors abusing their position of power and the long term effects to society that results from it

BESW

I remember being very sorry for one of my theology teachers in high school; she was an ex-nun and the kids gave her an AWFUL time about whether she was qualified to teach theology because of that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

ouch

wait did you go to a private school I take it?

I cant imagine anything near theology being taught in a public school

BESW

Yeah, a small Catholic high school run by the SSND.

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha

Grubermensch

The philosophy teacher at my high school had a theology degree and was an assistant minister at a local church.

BESW

12:36 PM

I really liked it, much to most peoples' surprise.

Grubermensch

The presentation of issues was less even-handed than I would have liked.

BESW

Most of my theology teachers were Jesuit trained, which may have helped, but the general attitude of the school was very healthy and supportive regardless of my not even being Christian.

Joshua Aslan Smith

As a protestant that meets with my ideals of apologetics, but I am somewhat surprised at this

for the catholic church

kviiri

We didn't have a separate religion teacher until the seventh grade, so it was our normal class teacher who taught us. Evangelic Lutherans as most Finns, at least nominally. From seventh grade onward, we had a more religious teacher, but she was of the "hippie protestant" pluralist type that I found very agreaable.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah, lutheran is protestant too

Are you christian but not part of the catholic church? If so, you are a protestant

kviiri

12:40 PM

Uh, no. Not by most definitions of protestantism I've heard, anyway.

Joshua Aslan Smith

only grey area is Anglican church

BESW

Catholicism is prevalent enough out here that "Christian" is used to mean "non-Catholic but religiously inclined," often even for those of non-Christian faiths.

Grubermensch

Orthodox?

Oxinabox

You could be any of the otherdox churchs, who are not Roman Catholic but are definately not prodistant

kviiri

Also, when you say "The Catholic Church", which one of those you mean?

Oxinabox

12:40 PM

Ah Gruberme beat me to it

Grubermensch

Let's not go and forget about everthing east of Rome

BESW

Josh's statement is generally true in the US, though.

Joshua Aslan Smith

right, so Anglican and Orthodox churches, but in general there a very few orthodox chruches in the west vs. near east

kviiri

Eastern Catholic Churches are in full communion with Rome but not a part of the Roman Catholic Church, I believe.

Joshua Aslan Smith

right

"2 romes have fallen and a 4th shall not be"

BESW

12:41 PM

...I use the Russian Orthodox aesthetic for my dwarves...

Joshua Aslan Smith

BTW the differences between the various orthodox churches are small in comparison to protestant churches and yeah I was colloquially using them in the way BESW suggested

Oxinabox

this is a wierd converstation

kviiri

A friend mentioned that their school's religion teacher forbade the terms "catholic" and "orthodox" as the sole names for the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church (despite their use being very widespread)

Joshua Aslan Smith

Does a priest intercede on your behalf? You're basically catholic/orthodox

kviiri

The reasoning was that the names are "loaded". "Catholic" means roughly that the tradition is "original", and "orthodox" means... well, "orthodox". Correct, in a way.

BESW

12:43 PM

@Oxinabox I've got my finger on the button to dump it in the Not A Bar at a moment's notice.

Grubermensch

@kviiri Catholic means "universal"

Oxinabox

Again Grubermensch beats me to it

kviiri

@Grubermensch Oh, sorry. I misremembered.

Joshua Aslan Smith

correct

Grubermensch

The sentiment is similar, though.

kviiri

12:45 PM

Yes.

Joshua Aslan Smith

so in my Presbyterian church PCA (Shoutout to @waxeagle) we recite the apostles creed which includes the words "catholic church" in that usage

Presbyterian Church in America

The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) is the second largest Presbyterian church body and the largest conservative Reformed denomination in the United States. The PCA is Reformed in theology, Presbyterian in government, Evangelical in spirit, and mission minded. There is a blend of Reformed practice and broad evangelicalism. == History == === Background === The PCA has its roots in theological controversies over liberalism and neo-orthodoxy that had been a point of contention in the Presbyterian Church in the U.S. (formerly the Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States of America...

BESW

← 75 messages moved from RPG General Chat

kviiri

Church time!

Joshua Aslan Smith

awesome

and good idea to move it here @besw

BESW

Mmm. Please remember to keep it just as civil as you'd be in main chat.

kviiri

12:51 PM

Of course!

@JoshuaAslanSmith How politically active is PCA?

Does the church make political statements as an entity?

Joshua Aslan Smith

not as such, but ministers make ethical statements that have political indications if that makes sense

PCA is extremely pro life, my church provides the majority of the funding for a local pregnancy crisis center

kviiri

The Evangelic Lutheran church of Finland (the largest church by far) is similarly reluctant (I don't even know if they'd have the power to make statements as an entity). Any official-ish statements they make are in the form of "kinda, but... it's a tricky subject" for anything even slightly controversial.

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh

its not quite that

See when you say politically active in the USA that basically means press conferences and funding to think tanks, lobbyists, and grass roots initatives

kviiri

The church wants to retain its nearly universal appeal by not offending anyone.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ah, I see.

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh no, PCA will definitely say abortion is wrong

death penalty is right

just war is legal and ethical etc.

kviiri

12:55 PM

Just war is just!

Joshua Aslan Smith

Being PCA and having a limited military background I feel like Im taking crazy pills whenever Ive debated the US GWOT issues with people at university

kviiri

Well, our Evangelic Lutherans have also made pro-gay statements lately, both figurative and concrete. For example they cut funding to missionary organizations that spread thegood old "homosexuality is a sin" message.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Biblically it is

kviiri

That's about as far as they'll go - they won't support (or actively oppose, for that matter) gay marriage or anything.

Yeah, but the Bible isn't that sexy for a church that tries to preserve its fading prestige and support. They were nearly universal here a few decades ago because almost everyone was a believer. Now they don't want to lose those who like Jesus but dislike gay-bashing.

Joshua Aslan Smith

So a good comparison is PCA (mine and @waxeagle's denomination) and PCUSA. Theres a long interesting history in their eventual split but its basically over how worldly the church should ultimately be. PCUSA has some sub-sects that even have active (as in sexually) gay and lesbian ordained pastors

kviiri

12:59 PM

We have a transgender pastor. It was quite a big news story a few years ago.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kvirri sounds like the catholic church is many ways. Cultural religion fading with generations

kviiri

Of course, there was controversy as well. Within the church, and outside it.

BESW

[amused]

kviiri

Marja-Sisko Aalto

Marja-Sisko Aalto (born Olli-Veikko Aalto July 29, 1954) is a Finnish transsexual minister of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. She was the vicar of the Imatra parish from 1986 to 2010. In November 2008, Aalto told the media that she was a trans woman and was having a sex reassignment operation. This caused a great controversy in the Church. The bishop of Mikkeli, Voitto Huotari, commented that there is no juridical obstacle for Aalto continuing as a vicar, but that there will be problems. In 2009 almost 600 members left the Imatra parish. In November 2009 Aalto returned to the job of vicar after...

Joshua Aslan Smith

Revelation 3:15-16 ESV

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

kviiri

1:01 PM

Actually a vicar - I'm not very good at English priestly titles.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kvirri I wouldnt know any of that.

BESW

One reason the Catholic Church integrated so widely and inextricably into the cultures it spread to (and I'm not disregarding the forcible integration elements, but this is really important too) is that it simultaneously managed to provide a universal structure while being extremely adaptable to local cultures on all the non-essential bits.

Catholics from one part of the world going to mass in another part of the world often feel very out of place.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw to be fair the protestant church has been doing an insane amount of translations for the last 50 years to make the bible as universally available as possible

BESW

This to the point that there's currently an elitist movement within the Church to impose Italian Catholic traditions on congregations worldwide.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I feel like adapting to local customs and beliefs is fine (and laudable) so long as you don't compromise theologically

BESW

1:03 PM

It's... um... not being received very well. The Pope recently told them it wasn't cool.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah

BESW

It's extremely divisive; Guam's getting a lot of drama and tension from it.

(Our Archbishop is part of the movement.)

kviiri

One of my personal friends is an Evangelic Lutheran priest who actually almost crossed the line - he was questioned by the council of something for his book, titled Everyone gets to Heaven: Necessary clarifications to the Christian dogma.

That was a fairly radical opinion, but still not radical enough to warrant any further action. The Evangelic Lutheran church gives its members, even the priests, considerable liberty of interpretation about everything.

As long as it's not something that easily alienates a lot of people, such as open racism or sexism or support for genocide or anything like that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

When you try to be all things to all people....

BESW

Despite growing up on a Catholic island, I still find the whole "clergy" thing exotic and strange.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:07 PM

@besw most americans/mainlanders would feel the same way

BESW

Well, no, most Christians have some form of clergy integrated into their faith.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw clergy to me equals required intercessor

So as a protestant I don't need to go to church, be baptized, or ever hear a sermon to be "saved" there are no first and last rites etc.

BESW

Nuh-uh. "Clergy" is a catch-all for all the ordained.

Anyone ordained for religious duties is a member of the clergy.

Joshua Aslan Smith

okay you got me that is the technical definition and you are correct.

I just dont think of them that way

a PCA pastor acts much closer to a rabbi than a catholic priest

kviiri

I can see what you mean.

BESW

1:10 PM

Mm. I'm using it specifically because it's such a wide definition, including the priesthood and learned in most non-Christian religions as well--including rabbis.

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha

kviiri

They teach and offer spiritual support and counceling, but don't really have much ritual significance, right?

BESW

And I'm careful to be so inclusive so that when I say the Bahá'í Faith has no clergy, the extent and scope of that is clear.

Joshua Aslan Smith

well you have to be ordained to marry someone

but not to preach a sermon

wait let me double check Im not misremembering the exactness of this

kviiri

Sounds about correct to me.

Granted, priests do receive a lot more... eh, "magic powers" in Catholicism.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:12 PM

The pastor will do ministry to the community by by and large a lot of that is distributed through elders and deacons in the church

BESW

In the Bahá'í Faith, a marriage must be witnessed by people in good standing with the community (which is defined clearly but nearly every Bahá'í meets the requirements), and then it has to be reported to the local administration.

kviiri

Our Ev.Lut church still has the right to marry people, but marriage is nowadays primarily a secular thing anyway. Honestly I'd rather split off marriage as a spiritual institution and as a secular institution totally.

BESW

Mmm. Bahá'ís have to get married according to whatever secular laws are binding on them, too (we're supposed to obey all our government's laws).

But yes, the legal/financial/etc aspect of marriage does seem... difficult to reconcile... with the spiritual element in cultures where governments are not spiritually influenced.

It's a difficult topic because it's hard to root down to the base assumptions about the nature and role of government, its relation to ethics and morals, and the source of morality.

I think justice and mercy are inherently spiritual qualities and governments cannot rule ethically without some source of guidance on which to base their decisions, and because justice, mercy, ethics, and morality are fundamentally spiritual the guiding principles of a just government must be spiritual. Where governments do not draw on such guidance directly, they instead are just inasmuch as they draw on the spiritual savour unknowingly infused in whatever source of guidance they do choose.

But I know that's a very controversial way of looking at ethics, and that various forms of humanism and humanist-like philosophies are currently more prevalent.

(I think humanism's got some things right, but it throws out the baby with the bathwater.)

kviiri

I see the secular marriage as mostly an administrative thing to make stuff easier for people who love each other. Of course, it differs by country, but here in Finland it's like that.

BESW

@kviiri Which makes a lot of sense, really, in the current context of Western government.

kviiri

1:27 PM

Yes. It's a very flexible system too, because it's still compatible with having a spiritual marriage on top of it.

Although I think most secular marriages do have some spiritual or symbolic element; few couples get married without loving each other at all, for purely practical reasons (although that happens).

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kviiri My wife feels taht way

wax eagle

@kviiri this is where I've landed as well.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@BESW I self-describe as a humanist and a Presbyterian and a deontologist but in truth I cherry pick humanism and deontology for what I like

wax eagle

I lived in Ecuador for a while, which is a secular state in a Catholic dominated country, and that's basically what they have. You get married twice, civil ceremony, then religious.

kviiri

Nothing wrong with cherrypicking. Cherries are good.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:30 PM

they are delicious though Id rather someone else pick the cherries and then make a delicious distillate