TRPG General Chat

11:00 AM

I think DnD also tends overexplain everything. What planes are there, what is beyond each...

@kviiri To return to the original topic, I think that bloat is --at least in part-- why demons and devils don't seem very demon-y and devil-y in a lot of the materials.

kviiri

Such a lot of my precious head canon was destroyed when I read the manual of the planes

BESW

@kviiri Pre-made settings are important for many reasons, not least economically. Remember that prior to Wizards acquiring the franchise there were many many D&D settings, and then Wizards chose instead to delve very deeply into a handful of chosen settings (easier to turn out more material with less creative effort if you're building in the same few worlds than if you're making new ones).

Also a lot of D&D groups like having that premade setting to fall back on, for various reasons.

Personally, the only D&D franchise setting I ever used was 4e's Points of Light.

kviiri

I can see that, but the setting is just too complicated and huge for my taste.

BESW

Agreed. I specifically disliked having players tell me that my setting choices were "wrong" because they disagreed with the default franchise options.

In fact, one of my games was designed in part to totally re-skin the entire world so that players who had memorised setting details, or monster manual info, or anything like that, would no longer have an advantage over my players who did not dedicate that much of their time and brain to the materials.

GMNoob

11:05 AM

Ah it was the "mature content" not satanism

And from what I'm reading around the net right now, I think people were just trying to be favorable cause they liked the book and were arguing against the ridicule of opposite for the sake of opposite.

BESW

@GMNoob BoED has some interesting flavour stuff, and a few ideas I really like, and some of the mechanics are... not awful?

But overall it's clumsy and poorly thought out, using the parallelism with BoVD instead of coming up with material which actually makes SENSE for Good to be using.

I will always like the musteval.

These little guys will never stop being awesome to me.

GMNoob

heh

kviiri

I think the very point of good vs evil is that evil does evil stuff, good does good stuff. Simply translating stuff, one-by-one, from evil to good leaves us with two sides that are fundamentally identical, with Evil being evil in name only as their methods are no worse than the good methods.

BESW

Pretty much.

GMNoob

What was the name of the squirrel in the cleric quintent?

BESW

11:10 AM

@kviiri Defining things by their opposites leaves no room for them to be themselves.

kviiri

@BESW Precisely.

GMNoob

Ah Percival ok nevermind.

BESW

You wind up with something like the Nightwatch/Daywatch situation, which only really works if you intended to make that statement (which Lukyanenko clearly intended, I think).

GMNoob

@BESW But that's a major part of people's understanding of good and evil. Without evil you wouldn't know what good is, etc.

BESW

@GMNoob That's not what I'm saying at all.

You can't contrast good and evil if they're only defined BY their contrast with each other.

kviiri

11:12 AM

@GMNoob But if good is simply "that which opposes and hurts evil", and evil is "that which opposes and hurts good", they're fundamentally identical.

While they're supposed to be opposite.

BESW

Which is why I brought up the Nightwatch/Daywatch thing, because that series is very much about how two supposedly different philosophies can become nearly identical when they define themselves by their opposition to each other.

(That it's a Russian series is probably somewhat telling, too.)

GMNoob

@kviiri Eh, it's an oversimplification of an oversimplification. One the one hand you have poisons. On the other hand you have ravages. They are different things. They are similiar, but the purpose behind them is different, and that purpose makes all the difference.

kviiri

Isn't the purpose pretty much the same for both, to hurt the opposing side?

BESW

...I think Dr. Claw just made a telephone cameo in Mystery Incorporated.

Magician

@BESW It's been a somewhat popular theme in Russian fiction in the 90's, that there's no good or evil and everyone's a bastard. I severely dislike it.

GMNoob

11:16 AM

@kviiri No, poisons are used to hurt anybody. Ravages are used to only hurt those who hurt others.

BESW

@GMNoob Or who would be inclined to hurt others if the situation ever occurred. Again we run up against the problem with Evil in D&D.

A butcher who really likes killing things and would eagerly kill a person if he ever figured out how to do it without getting caught, but is too dumb and timid to plan a murder so spends his entire life as a law-abiding butcher and dies having never gotten the opportunity to fulfil that lifelong dream... is still susceptible to a ravage.

If intent is what distinguishes a ravage from a poison, intent is also sufficient to make the butcher Evil enough to succumb to a ravage.

kviiri

At least they scrapped some unnecessary bulk of the alignment in DnD 4e.

BESW

In either case, ravages are designed to inflict suffering on sapient beings and that is not a Good act regardless of intent or target.

Magician

@kviiri That sacred cow has been revivified.

kviiri

Hopefully even more in 5e - I'm not really a fan of alignment as a mechanic.

BESW

11:23 AM

@kviiri I was so happy when I realised that 4e's alignment system was totally divorced from any mechanic.

I threw that thing out of the window after stomping on it a few times.

GMNoob

@BESW Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say when there is nothing to base the action on. Does the butcher keep trying to kill people but fails, or does he never try. Why is he so worried about "Getting caught"? Does he have perfect impulse control?

kviiri

Traditionally the good ones are the ones who fight fair and chivalrously, always keep their promise and act selflessly. The evil ones scheme, lie, make deals with devils and seek only their own gain.

Of course, in DnD, there's the additional lawful-chaotic axis that complicates things.

BESW

And we have to remember that a lot of D&D's alignment system doesn't come from traditional sources.

GMNoob

@BESW Isn't the normal criticism that it's too western and traditional, and doesn't express moral ambiguity enough?

BESW

D&D was drawing on contemporary fantasy novels which deconstructed traditional notions of heroism. It also drew on Hammer horror films, and Kolchak, and dozens of other sources which are often lost to antiquity (by which I mean nobody who was there can agree on what actually happened anymore).

kviiri

11:30 AM

@GMNoob I could see that. DnD 4e, for example, pretty much equates evil with selfishness and good with protecting the weak.

BESW

@GMNoob Bleh. It's certainly very western, but it's "traditional" only in the sense that it became such a prevalent baseline for fantasy that we now see D&D kitchen-sink fantasy as the tradition.

kviiri

Heh, true.

BESW

But certainly D&D has little interest in, or support for, exploring moral ambiguity.

Or moral tales of much complexity at all, really.

kviiri

I dislike putting characters in pens and I think the 3x3 alignment system does just that.

GMNoob

I liked in the 5e basic rules, how they point out that chaotic means different things to different alignments/characters.

BESW

11:34 AM

The majority of its rules are for combat and its social rules tend to be anaemically rudimentary. It usually leaves motive as an exercise for the group; its alignment definitions tend to be heinously ambiguous and every attempt to clarify them just makes things worse; and it frequently penalises dramatic character arcs by taking away mechanical options.

@Hadashi Hi!

Hadashi

@BESW heya

Interesting chat.

Alignments are funny things really.

BESW

Aye. This is one of the few places on the Internet I've seen people able to discuss it as a mechanical game-enclosed concept rather than conflating it with their own real-world beliefs.

Hadashi

@BESW This is an interesting site then, lol

BESW

On an entirely different note, your Ursula Vernon icon pleases me.

Hadashi

@BESW Thanks! Wish I could draw like her.

GMNoob

11:43 AM

@BESW It's also a good trope enforcer :D If you like that kind of thing.

@BESW btw, did you want to know where to find The Flash, or will you be waiting for the official release?

BESW

@GMNoob Thanks, but I'll wait.

kviiri

I wouldn't want to enforce tropes, at least by taking away options. I trust my party enough to RP well without huge mechanical constraints.

BESW

I'll look up some reviews or something, probably, though.

GMNoob

@BESW Just asking cause I'm about to close the window with the link :P

BESW

@kviiri This gets back into my favourite topic of how system shapes environment to influence choice.

Hadashi

11:45 AM

@BESW I think that tropes, as a general rule, add pain to your campaign. The moment you start typecasting plots you make them really predictable.

GMNoob

@kviiri It's more about teaching you that "this is the correct way to play" than a question of trust.

Hadashi

Ooops, responded to the wrong person

kviiri

@GMNoob I don't want to enforce a "correct" way either.

BESW

@Hadashi You can press the up arrow to edit your statement.

(There's a time limit on editing, maybe about 3 minutes?)

Hadashi

Ah, ok. Doubt it matters, tbh, think they saw it.

GMNoob

11:48 AM

@Hadashi If the predictable is fun and enjoyable there is nothing wrong with that. I like my cheap food predictable, even if I enjoy the occasional surprise in a gourmet dish.

kviiri

I don't mind my DnD game being predictable. Apocalypse World OTOH, yes I do.

BESW

Unfortunately it often feels like D&D isn't fully cognisant of what tropes it is and isn't encouraging.

Hadashi

@GMNoob I think if it is done for humour, stuff like that can work. It's mainly when it is played dead straight that I go hmmmm.

GMNoob

@BESW Well it certainly changes from generation to generation.

BESW

For example, many character builds are strictly penalised if they follow certain common tropes which the game provides mechanics to support.

GMNoob

11:50 AM

@Hadashi I think the term is "camp" but I'm not sure.

Hadashi

@GMNoob Haha, I think you might be referring to a possible component more than the main portion. :

;)

BESW

I think that D&D's habit of supporting poor choices is one reason so many of our most popular questions and answers have to do with whether or not to be a jerk to your friends at the table when the game lets/encourages it of your character.

(Certainly a lot of my rep on this site comes from being able to re-phrase "Sure you could be a jerk, but what would you want to?" over and over again on.)

kviiri

A person whom I don't know personally but who is somehow related to me has drawn a Finnish comic book that's basically a campy parody of DnD. It pokes fun at the several clichés by inverting a lot of the most tired elements. For example there's a cleric who fights with a huge claymore while the paladin sticks to a tiny dagger.

wax eagle

@Hadashi don't have a lot of time, but if your switching to Cleric/WP might I recommend a Cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore. The cleric supports melee or ranged play (Str primary for melee, Wis primary for Ranged), though is much more powerful IMO as a ranged combatant. (Make sure that whatever you do, you read the char-op guides on the WOTC forums though)

Hadashi

@BESW My perspective on that has been a bit skewed since my last run in with Friend Computer. ;)

BESW

11:55 AM

@Hadashi Now, that's a good example of a game which knows exactly what behaviour it wants to encourage and has designed everything from manual layout to mechanics and setting to do so.

2

Hadashi

@waxeagle Oh, thanks, sorry I should have posed a question but I didn't want to be rude....

kviiri

Coincidentally, in the influential old-school Roguelike game Angband, you'd often wind up using light weapons like daggers even as a fighter type character, because you get additional blows per turn based on weapon weight.

BESW

It's not a game I'd ever want to run and I'd probably be awful at playing it, but I admire its self-awareness and self-control.

GMNoob

@BESW I'm not sure what you are referring to by poor choices

Hadashi

@BESW With extreme, extreme glee, I'd like to add, lol

wax eagle

11:56 AM

@Hadashi np, appreciate you coming to hang out not just for information :)

kviiri

@BESW This, very much this.

Hadashi

@waxeagle Aww, thanks. :) You guys seem nice. Is this where the internet exiles the people who aren't trolls? XD

BESW

@GMNoob Choices which inhibit fun and storytelling at the table, which impinge on the choices of others in ways that reduce their fun.

kviiri

As I said in this chat some days ago, DnD is at that funny intersection where they encourage role-playing a lot in the margin of their pages while actually the game is focused on the strict combat mechanics.

BESW

@Hadashi Thanks, we try.

wax eagle

11:58 AM

@Hadashi well, we do our best. Solid community driven moderation is a big part of what we do. Focused topics is another. Those things in concert help a ton

Hadashi

@kviiri I have been thinking this for years. It makes such a great computer game system I'm amazed it hasn't been pillaged more often

BESW

@GMNoob If you haven't read Making the Tough Decisions, it might be helpful for some context on where I'm coming from.

kviiri

@Hadashi It has been pillaged a lot in the past. The popular NetHack and Angband are based on the system.

@Hadashi, I've been frequenting this chat for a few weeks now and yes, this is an awesome little lair of good discussions.

BESW

@Hadashi Almost all stat-block-based randomised-modified-number-for-action computer/video RPG games are ultimately derived from the basic D&D concept of character design.

Hadashi

@kviiri I guess. What I mean mostly though is that I'm amazed that there aren't more offical games

BESW

12:01 PM

@Hadashi 4e was supposed to have an MMO attached to it.

kviiri

@Hadashi Oooh, as in official DnD computer conversions?

Hadashi

@BESW That seems almost redundant, lol

BESW

But at the end of the day tabletop RPGs are attractive because they're run by living people who can adapt to unexpected choices.

Hadashi

@kviiri Yeah, I can think of a few. Baulders Gate and a couple of others

BESW

We aren't yet at the point where a computer game can accommodate for a player wanting to do something its designers couldn't possibly have thought of.

GMNoob

12:03 PM

D&d games used to be the gold standard for computer rpgs

kviiri

Yeah, although DnD (particularly 4e) is so heavily based on the combat system I guess you could make a fairly functional pure computer clone out of it.

BESW

A GM can call for a five-minute snack break to regroup, and roll with the punches.

kviiri

You would have to script "out of the box" actions separately though.

GMNoob

Pool of radiance is where me and my friends started

I think that was on the Apple iie

Oddly, the more compatible with computers the game got the fewer rpgs they made :)

kviiri

If you'd be content with leading a party through a random-generated dungeon, the combat system without any actions beyond what's in the rules and treasure per manuals, you'd be just fine on a computer.

Hadashi

12:05 PM

@GMNoob I have that somewhere. Didn't get far. My other favourite was Temple of Elemental Evil because it would let you make a few genuine decisions, including some which were hilariously dumb.

GMNoob

Btw, who was asking about the Dungeon! Board game? I just got mine today

kviiri

You could even theme stuff with relative ease: make certain monsters appear more often together, have the adventure end in a fight against a solo etc.

GMNoob

My all-time favorite crpg from d&d is planescape: torment however

kviiri

I haven't really gotten into crpg's apart from Roguelikes, but I like those A LOT.

Particularly Dungeon Crawl.

GMNoob

There was also a good Darksun game but I can't remember what it's called

Hadashi

12:08 PM

@waxeagle Btw, thanks for the advice. I guess my main attraction to WP was mainly just the free resurrect at level eight, which is probably the best situational daily I have ever seen.

GMNoob

You have to play planescape torment and also not read reviews

The first time I played it I spent over 100 hours on the game. The last time I played it I spent less than 30 though.

Hadashi

@GMNoob Ah, I never could stand PT. It was 0k, I guess, but, if I remember, the immortality could make it a bit easy if you exploited it.

GMNoob

Only at the begining

Later in the game dying can be very bad. I had to restart the game once because I was dieing in a place that I could not remember how to get back to :)

Hadashi

@GMNoob Hmm, maybe I'll give it another go, see if my opinion is different. I think I got up to that bit where you are Mazed and then stopped for some reason.

GMNoob

You probably got stuck. I know I did.

Hadashi

12:13 PM

@GMNoob Probably, lol

That or my computer fried. Maybe a bit of both.

GMNoob

There's a lot to the game I've never had a chance to experience

Many npcs I've never added to my party etc.

BESW

Okay folks, it's getting close to my bedtime.

Hadashi

@BESW Aww, damn, 0k.

BESW

@Hadashi Hope to see you around again soon.

ttfn

Hadashi

@BESW I cast summon cocoa and wish you good night. ;)

Night!

GMNoob

12:22 PM

Actually, now that I think about it, I think high int and charisma allowed you to avoid most fights or cast your way out of them.

Its one of those games where int and charisma affect your dialogue options

Hadashi

Hey, btw, does anyone know if there is anything better than Light Shield at level 1 for someone trying to avoid heavy armour? (in 4e)

GMNoob

Asking about shields abilities or armors?

Hadashi

12:42 PM

@GMNoob Shield items.

GMNoob

12:55 PM

I can't remember any level one magic shields

kviiri

Well you cold opt to wield a two-handed weapon instead.

More damage dealt --> less damage received

GMNoob

@kviiri I was going to say the same thing, so I looked at the relevant question. The shield is needed to boost the REF def.

kviiri

2:28 PM

I'm actually writing an article on our student organization's magazine about RPG's.

it's always fun doing something more lighthearted.

GMNoob

RPGs are seriouz buziness

kviiri

I mean writing-wise. I also write in a Finnish computer mag, which is still fun but more professional and serious.

GMNoob

:D

GMNoob

3:32 PM

That's kinda awesome, I asked a question based on someone's blog, and the blog owner answered the question.

@waxeagle you'll want to read this surfarcher.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/…

GMNoob

5:03 PM

its so quiet on sundays

lisardggY

Yeah.

Christians. Hmpf.

:)

GMNoob

@lisardggY lol

Grubermensch

5:49 PM

lol

GMNoob

6:16 PM

Every time I ask a question, I feel like I need to add a comment. Please tell me what question you would prefer I have.

mxyzplk

6:38 PM

Sigh. On the one hand I feel like I need to close every single one of Aldath LeCarde's questions for being too broad and/or duplicates, but then again I get sick of taking all the flak for closing. Anyone who wants to try to help the lad get into the groove better, the help would be appreciated.

Joshua Aslan Smith

7:04 PM

@mxyzplk I feel the same way about Aldath as well, lots of enthusiasm but poor question writing and use of the site

Ive offered to have the user join chat

they havent

and the community has voted to close a lot of that user's questions too

I think they are treating the site as a forum sorta

Grubermensch

It does really seem like these are better chat questions.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@grubermensch they work better as chat questions than site questions because they are low quality questions

Grubermensch

maybe

Joshua Aslan Smith

if you were going to ask low quality questions anywhere chat is where it would be

Grubermensch

I think this latest one is a valid question, but it's too nuanced and complex for the SE format

Joshua Aslan Smith

7:06 PM

also if the user were in chat we could actually instruct them on how to better write questions

Grubermensch

not saying that the questions aren't also presented poorly

Joshua Aslan Smith

its a I dont know my actual problem question

like I said the user could read the about section and the help section or join chat

Grubermensch

@JoshuaAslanSmith chat's a good place to figure that out

Joshua Aslan Smith

right

which is why I wish artdath would join chat at some point

Grubermensch

i would invite to chat, to increase the peer pressure, but i'm leaving on a trip in 15 minutes

Joshua Aslan Smith

7:14 PM

lol

GMNoob

I don't get what is wrong with his question. He asked about rping monsters and discovered he is afraid to have them kill his players. Now he is asking about why he might be afraid to kill his players and gave lots of insight into why, and wants to know how to fix it.

Grubermensch

Off to wrestle bears, or whatever it is they do in Wyoming.

GMNoob

The problem is not asking how to do death well, it's how to have his monsters go all out and still have his plot focused players happy

And not be all mad and leave the table if they die.

Grubermensch

This is why I'm saying it's too nuanced and complex for our format.

The answer there depends a good bit on the particular dynamics of Aldath's table.

I think it is something we could help him work through in chat.

GMNoob

How can it be too nuanced and complex for our format? It's a very specific question

He explained the dynamics pretty well for having a language barrier IMO

Grubermensch

7:18 PM

Not well enough to get good solutions to this IMO

GMNoob

maybe it's cause I've been in similiar circumstances, but I don't see what is missing. The players enjoy the meta plot and he is getting bored with meat bags that must die

he's affraid to pull of signature monsters moves because it might kill a key protagonist

Inbar Rose

I don't know what to think about this article about sexuality in D&D5e. It's great that it's so open and defined, but I don't like that it's being targeted as a hot-topic.

Grubermensch

You are reading it from a publication whose target audience is the LGBTQ community.

Presumably it is a hot topic for them.

user61230

Depends how much Wizards uses it for advertising.

user61230

If Wizards is trying to use this to push 5e, then it's borderline despicable behavior.

Inbar Rose

7:26 PM

@Grubermensch I dunno, it was linked from D&D's Facebook Page.

GMNoob

It's making a niche market very happy and it's written in a way that makes dnd traditionalists like myself recognize that it's not a new change at all.

user61230

Yeah. Like I say, if.

Inbar Rose

@Emrakul That's not something I considered, or thought about. I meant I hate that anything related even remotely to the LGBT is always set on fire (excuse the horrible pun) on the internet.

user61230

I wish people would stop making an issue out of it as well.

Inbar Rose

There are numerous things in 5e that are new/different/more defined. Why target this?

Indeed.

user61230

7:28 PM

We'd be in a better place if people accepted it as a part of life and moved on.

Grubermensch

One link on a facebook page is hardly targeting.

Inbar Rose

Just like people have accepted that some people can be non-religious.

50 years ago that was unheard of

user61230

Heh, well, accepted versus trust

Inbar Rose

or equal rights to men and women

GMNoob

the lgbt community is making this a big deal, I havnt seen anyone else do so

Inbar Rose

7:29 PM

And racial equality.. etc etc...

user61230

It's important to make it important where rights are being violated

Inbar Rose

@GMNoob I don't know enough to say for sure, but shouldn't they also not like that anything lgbt is getting so much attention?

I mean.... Stop talking about it as an issue and it will stop being an issue.

Grubermensch

@InbarRose This acceptance you speak of, it is not as universal as you think it is.

GMNoob

I don't think it's fair to tell people their victory is too small or they are celebrating it wrongly

Inbar Rose

@Grubermensch Tell me about it.

@GMNoob That's not what I am saying.

Grubermensch

7:30 PM

And with that, friends, I depart. Catch y'all on Friday!

user61230

@GMNoob I agree.

GMNoob

Rpgs are biggest in the Midwest not the coasts of I remember correctly

user61230

But like everything, there's a limit to the extent of what is healthy.

Inbar Rose

You know there is more to RPG than just the USA? :P

@Emrakul As I was always told growing up "Everything in moderation, including moderation!"

2

user61230

@Inbar I like that.

Inbar Rose

7:32 PM

Words to live by.

Lots of wisdom to be found in the words of your parents.

user61230

At some point, I'd be willing to argue that it's the ethical responsibility of those who are older to pass down the wisdom they have encountered in their lives

Inbar Rose

Also, another thing I was always told growing up that you might like: "Vincit qui se vincit" Latin for "He conquers who conquers himself".

OMG it's so hot here... I am sitting shirtless at home under the AC (Directly under it) and I am sweating... :(

user61230

I'm curious, @Inbar, where do you live?

user61230

If you don't mind me asking

Inbar Rose

Don't mind. I was just checking the website.

I am in Tel-Aviv, Israel.

27°C or 81°F and 75% humidity....

user61230

7:38 PM

Ah, yes! I remember this now!

user61230

And that weather is unfortunate.

Inbar Rose

The humidity is so insane.

user61230

I've only been in worse humidity once. San Diego doesn't have humidity.

Inbar Rose

At least there are no rockets being fired on me today (first time in weeks) so I don't have to go into the bomb shelter (which has no AC)

GMNoob

And people ask me why I'm willing to commute to maalot :)

user61230

7:40 PM

Really? Rockets in Tel Aviv? o.O

user61230

How far in are they going?

GMNoob

Haifa

Inbar Rose

@Emrakul Haven't you been watching the news?

GMNoob

I think the only place not to get rockets is tzfat and tiveria

Inbar Rose

Yep

GMNoob

7:42 PM

I say that without jinx

user61230

I've been watching the big picture, but not the day-to-day changes.

user61230

Well, as much as the day-to-day changes don't affect the big picture.

Inbar Rose

Meh.

Life goes on.

GMNoob

Fun thing for me have been the Ramadan fireworks

Every boom outside is one of four things and we take bets. Fireworks, ketushas, return fire or a car backfiring :p

user61230

Where in Israel are you, @GMNoob?

Inbar Rose

7:45 PM

@GMNoob What are the odds?

GMNoob

Not sure on the odds, the wager are shots

Up north near Lebanon

If you guess correctly you say the toast

Does anyone remember who was asking about the Dungeon! Boardgame?

GMNoob

8:04 PM

This website is technologically mind blowing.... israelunderattack.tk

user61230

8:22 PM

Might not be accessible outside Israel

Joshua Aslan Smith

it totally is

Im there

@inbarrose I wish you the best of luck, rooting as always for the excellent isreali military

user61230

8:39 PM

It might be best to take a step back from the Israeli/Hamas conflict for now.

user61230

While many of us agree, it isn't really on-topic, and it has great capacity to end with unintentional incitement.

BESW

8:50 PM

Yeeeah. My prayers are with everyone involved in the conflict, and the spiritual and administrative centre of my faith is very close to the action, but I've already had to bite my tongue at least once. In the interests of chat unity let's keep it to a minimum in this particular room.

user61230

I have a curiosity about Fate.

user61230

The rules say about concession that:

user61230

> Concession gives the other person what they wanted from you, or in the case of more than two combatants, removes you as a concern for the opposing side.

user61230

What if all the other person wants is for you to die?

user61230

Actually

user61230

8:58 PM

I think I'll just ask this on main

BESW

There's an example of that in the book, I think, but I found it unsatisfactory.

Definitely a good question to ask on main site, but I think it's crucial to specify which version you're asking about.

wax eagle

@Emrakul Rob is poking around, he might answer :)

user61230

(I'm kind of irked, since this was the first session of this game)

user61230

(I feel like fights to the death don't really work well in Fate)

BESW

DFRPG explicitly talks about concession as a way to survive a fight where the enemy wants you dead (YS206).

user61230

9:09 PM

Huh. I'll take a look at that. I'll still ask about Fate, though, since it's something of a catch 22.

user61230

Waaait, I'm not seeing it from YS206... it doesn't mention where another specifically wants you dead, just says that you can avoid being killed?

user61230

Unless I skimmed this too fast?

BESW

> If your group does permit calling for character death in certain physical conflicts, expect players to use concessions a lot to avoid that final fate. This is, in fact, exactly what you want—it ensures that when a player does decide to fight to the end, it will be over a conflict that has a lot of meaning for the character, and if he dies, the death will resonate in the emerging story.
As a rule of thumb, when death is on the line, announce it in advance, preferably at the start of the conflict—e.g., “This guy’s playing for keeps. If he can kill you, he will. You can see it in his eyes.” …

user61230

Hmm... that doesn't quite address what happens if the party you're giving into only wants you dead

user61230

In other words, if I concede to a pack of ravenous lions who are being mind-controlled to tear me to shreds, there's not much I could reasonably do if I give into the conflict.

BESW

9:17 PM

And at the end of the day this is why the GM has some responsibility to avoid creating that kind of conflict in the first place.

One example of a way around it that I saw (can't remember where) is basically the "fell off a cliff into a river" ending.

You appear to have died, everyone's satisfied with your demise, and then you wash up downstream with a major consequence and a lot of story inconvenience--but you're alive.

user61230

Hrrrrm

BESW

(And maybe you get kissed by a horse.)

user61230

I mean, the bobcat-creatures could just knock me out and dump me in a nearby river.

user61230

Hah!

user61230

The frustrating part of this is that I rolled +5 on stealth

BESW

9:30 PM

If I get time to write an answer later, it'll probably be "yeah, that's confusing. Here's how other Fate systems do it, I think that's what Core meant to say, and here's a cogent argument in DFRPG about placing characters in situations where death is likely."

user61230

(Question not tagged DFRPG, FYI)

user61230

Yeah, that makes sense.

user61230

I'm sure the answer is going to be "don't get in that situation," but it's still hard to say

user61230

Maybe the catch-22 exists to warn GMs not to do this

BESW

Aye, but DFRPG has the non-mechanical discussions about character death.

user61230

9:33 PM

It still has the same catch-22 at the core.

BESW

It doesn't ever say "don't do that," but it has a lot of "talk with the players before you start the game" and "probably bad to spring it on them without warning."

user61230

> A concession is basically a special form of being taken out—you lose the conflict, but you get to decide your character’s fate on your own terms instead of your opponent’s. That way, your character doesn’t have to take any consequences you’re not willing to take and can avoid fates that might arise from being taken out by the opponent, such as getting captured, killed, humiliated, etc. --(YS206)

user61230

It's almost the same wording, actually

BESW

Aye.

The more I work with Core, the more I realise it's got some poor legacy wording.

user61230

How so?

BESW

9:36 PM

Well, like the above not making it clear the extent to which concession gives the player narrative control of their losing.

user61230

It may just also be a vague edge case that Fate isn't intended to handle

user61230

Although at some point, it needs to handle it, now that I think about it

user61230

Actually, no, I take that back.

BESW

Don't get me wrong, Core's a lot better than any previous Fate writeup I've seen, but it's still got several spots with deep pitholes of "Bah, you figure it out" covered up by weasel words instead of abdicating responsibility explicitly.

user61230

Fate is encouraging GMs to create scenes where the players are at risk of death, but are not literally fighting for their lives.

user61230

9:38 PM

Ahaha that made me laugh

user61230

What I mean, though, is that you're fighting a powerful ice-mage who wants you dead, but could also just as well use you alive. In other words, there needs to be something to concede into, otherwise the conflict just isn't interesting.

BESW

Right.

And that's a responsibility of the GM which Core could have done more to make explicit.

user61230

Yeah, that makes sense. I see what you're saying

BESW

It's an extension of the "don't call for a roll unless the failure and the success would be interesting" guideline, but I think that Fate Core is dedicated enough to explaining away "traditional" RPG attitudes that it should call this one out more clearly.

user61230

I honestly think that should be part of the Silver Rule

user61230

9:48 PM

Where it says not to let rules get in the way of what makes narrative sense, it should also say not to let rolls get in the way of story progression

pet

10:46 PM

Hi all,

BESW

Hey.

pet

got a question about charge

dnd 4e

i dont get why its still not clear to me

the rules compendium says its a standard action

not a full round action

so can i still make a move and minor before ?

BESW

Right. 4e has no concept of the full round action.

pet

so a charge can be a double move

move my distance,

then charge wich allows me to move my distance again

BESW

So yes, you can move and minor before a charge. Makes it good to hustle across a battlefield and still attack at the other end.

One of the first encounters I ever ran in 4e had a teleportation circle where anyone standing in it could teleport their speed as a minor action.

A fighter used that, a move action, and a charge, to run down an enemy that was trying to get away.

pet

10:50 PM

nice,

BESW

The limit on charging is that you can't do anything after a charge.

It ends your turn.

pet

fine i just do my move and minor before,

i get that i can move away after a charge

BESW

Right. It puts a limiter on possible tactics, which is what 4e's all about: creating tactically interesting scenarios.

pet

ok, another thin is,

can i push an enemy on mount ?

on a mount?

BESW

That's definitely worth a main-site question, I think.

If I recall correctly, pushing a mount carries the rider with it but pushing a rider dismounts them.

But don't quote me on that.

pet

10:56 PM

hm, okies, i can write a main -site question on that,

there was one more situation last game,

the ranger of the party was using clever shot on his target, and on hit always chose to shift the target up to two squares

the pb for me was that the target was Large, 2x2, so i was wondering is there any size restriction on forced movement ?

i was not able to find any in the rules compendium

BESW

3

Q: How do slide, push and pull works for huge and gargantuan enemies?

Basically, can a medium monk slide or push or pull a huge or gargantuan enemy? Can any character (the example with my party was a monk) move (slide, push or pull) a bigger creature than him? in 3.5e you could only move a creature one size bigger than you, but this rule is not specified in 4e.

dnd-4e

pet

which would mean with an arrow i could shift a gargantuan target?

ah, lol

yes i found that,

Transcript for