@infatuated :The fact is that there are no shia authentic hadith which shows that Ali himself asked for caliphate or used ghadir khummm as argument. Ali himself never understood ghadir in a way the modern shia see.

@UmarAdeel This is not a modern shia view, the shia have developed this years and years ago, and hence they have developed counter arguments to this, I have used this argument before but no success I was countered, really to argue or have a sensible discussion with anyone one must study, and if you want to bring up an argument then it should be in a way that cannot be denied through Taqiyyah or lack of knowledge

@Mujahidمجاهد Modern Shia means any shia past the shiane ali after Ali's RA death

ok

I was just saying, because i have never heard the english word (or even the arabic one) used to refer to over 1000 years ago

but ok :)

@Mujahidمجاهد : Success does not mean that they will change their opinions\ convert to Sunni.

@UmarAdeel no, of course not. (convert to sunni?)

@Mujahidمجاهد is the man

I'm reading an old Hebrew text by someone from Baghdad. He refers to a body part "towards the end of the arm" which in transliterated-to-Hebrew Arabic is עכס (roughly: `-K-S). My rudimentary Arabic tells me that should be عكس but Google tells me that means "reversal". I'm expecting it to mean "shoulder" or "armpit" or something like that. Any ideas?

@BleedingFingers Thanks. Ping @Mujahidمجاهد

I tried switching the ع for غ and س for ش but didn't find any word that made sense. Perhaps there's a vowel lengthening أ which wasn't accounted for?

@UmarAdeel, You're wrong and ignorant about a lot of facts. Imam Ali along with the Hashemites and many of prophet's best companions refused to pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr. In fact Imam Ali and the Hashemites were not even represented in Saqifa to defend the right that had been vested to Imam Ali in Ghahdir.

After Saqifa many of supporters of Ahlulbayt gathered in the house of Imam Ali and Lady Zahra to organize for opposing the decision at Saqifa which they deemed as nothing short of a tribal coup.

But since they didn't have enough supporters to challenge the decision, and Umar had threatened to crack on whoever challenged the decision. so they decided that they didn't want the schism turn into a division and chaos among the Ummah, decided to comply despite their strong annoyance at the decision.

The house of Imam Ali was actually put under siege and Umar threatened to inflame it. There are even traditions that Lady Zahra was injured in the process when the supporters of Umar and Abu Bakr resorted to physical force to bring Ali into submission.

Lady Zahra also never talked to Abu Bakr to the end of his life.

So the reason Imam Ali complied was not because he agreed with the coup but because he wanted to prevent the situation escalate further. of course he showed utmost magnamity and forbearance despite his strong grievance.

And you're wrong in saying that there is no evidence in Nahjul Balagha that he didn't express his displeasure at the decision. But if you're looking for answers with proofs and arguments, open up a question.

@DoubleAA don't know if it helps (i'm hardly fluent in Arabic) but according to Lane's, "عكاس: the cord which is tied to the fore part of the nose, or mouth, of a camel to his fore legs or to the pastern of [each of] his fore legs to render him submissive, or tractable"

that would put it on the ankle wrist end of the arm, rather than the armpit end. also, it's apparently only for camels.

@goldPseudo Interesting. I had thought based on context that he referred to the proximal part of the arm. The pastern, IIUC, is quite distal.

@goldPseudo My text is definitely discussing humans. Thank you for your ideas though. Perhaps they will help spark someone else's mind.

yeah, it's a bit of a stretch. doesn't even refer to the actual leg, just the rope used to tie to it.

but closest i could find on that root.

(related note: google translates עכס directly from Hebrew as "anklet", which seems very probably etymologically related to that sense of "thing tied to ankle")

@goldPseudo indeed!

do you know about almaany online arabic dictionary? It includes various destination languages and is also bidirectional. It makes you needless of any other dictionary.

@DoubleAA ( "towards the end of the arm" ), that is kind of a riddle

The Arm is a very deep thing, there is the Musculatory system there is skeletal, nervous, veins and so on. And then there is the matter of what end, you say shoulder/armpit, but when I read that I think forearm. Really to answer without guesses, I will need more context

As for shoulder or armpit in arabic, they are الكتفين والإبطين (كتف) ابط

My first guess would be somewhere in the forearm, first guess would be the wrists الرسغين

perhaps الكعبرة?

@DoubleAA why don't you send me the title of the book, page number and line, and I can see what I can do?

@infatuated These are allegations not facts , all your allegations have been thoroughly refuted in exemplary detail here:

web.archive.org/web/20090524040001/http://www.ahlelbayt.com/…

But yes a question remains to be asked whether A highly authentic shia source exist which shows that Ali AS himself used the ghadir khumm as an argument for the alleged nomination.

Assalamalaikum

@Mujahidمجاهد The page is hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41237&st=&pgnum=110 6th paragraph 4th line in the middle of the line, but as I said it's all in Hebrew. My translation of the relevant sentence: "Behold here in our city Bagdad from years past all the women were accustomed to have their arms uncovered until the end of the arm which we call עכס." The word used for arm זרוע is somewhat ambiguous as it can sometimes refer to the whole arm, or just the upper arm, or just the forearm.

Based on the ensuing Halakhic discussion, I assume he referred to women who had their upper arms uncovered, but I may be mistaken. Elbow would be possible I guess, and wrist would be highly surprising.

If it matters, the work is approximately 150 years old.

@UmarAdeel, "all your allegations have been thoroughly refuted in exemplary detail here..." hehe, you don't even know what my allegations are! You are reading about shiism from a sunni anti-shiite perspective and as such are already subject to accusation of bias and prejudiced study. for objective study of any school of thought, you should study it from the perspective of those who advocate it, not those who are already adamantly opposed to it.

that is even more vital when studying subjects such as religion and even more so when examining sectarian differences.

@infatuated :))

@infatuated I am a former shia

it matters not!

I have studied it in detail

and proves nothing!

The zaidis are also a shia sect

again, that proves nothing!

So what proves?

Zaidis?! I'm a twelver Shiite and have nothing to do with zaidism!

@infatuated Who was Ali AS?

Was he also 12er Shia?

I'm not in for a debate! I told you if you have questions post it on the site!

@infatuated Sure that question I will post Inshallah

But unfortunately this site is infested with many active shias and the sunnis who are on Quran and Sunnah here I have found to be very patient with this onslaught Alhamdulillah.

They actually dont care it seems as they were not born as Shias hence cant fathom how Shiism is based on hatred of people and not love of Ahlebayt.

But in this age of Information we can easily study almost everything and also see how people behave.

you're making subjective allegations one after another. that hardly brings any light to the issue!

@infatuated Ya just expressing my feelings

dont take it as argument

Love is good but love can be blind

enlightenment reigns supreme over all values, and pretty much dictates and defines them all.

@infatuated what is enlightenment

?

knowledge.

wisdom

bookish answers though:)

q

wisdom is subjective.

truth

yes

but I think knowledge is more general.

and carries less objective connotations.

anybody can do anything and claim it to be wisdom!

and it is also light.

enlightenment comes only from revelation

yeah, because wisdom is knowledge associated with a particular person and situation and as such is limited.

all knowledge is revelation :)

revelation from God

direct knowledge\Ilham

yes, prophetic revelation is the utmost level of knowledge.

but philosophically it's been established by muslim metaphysicans that all knowledge is a revelation from extra-natural spheres.

@infatuated I dont believe in Kalam \Philosophy . It makes to many assumptions and theories

has lead many great scholars astray

it does make many assumptions yes, but your latter statement is arguable.

philosophy is the way of proper inquiry into everything.

i guess 12er also reject sufism?

@UmarAdeel that's enough of that.

we expect everyone to behave with respect here.

calling out others as "heretics" and "accursed" is not appropriate.

@goldPseudo OK

heretic, accursed according to whom? do you think you seat on the utmost throne of truth?!

@infatuated Well the Quran asks us to be judgemental

based on Quran and Sunnah

and those who dont judge based on Quran and Sunnah are disbelievers

the question is whether we do have a correct knowledge of Quran and Sunnah!

Being non judgemental is a zen\buddhist philosphy

@infatuated Yes those who study and learn them extensively and believe in it have the correct knowledge

After all God says we have made the Quran easy to understand

even the language used was that which the target population knew well

@infatuated It is sunnah to curse innovators in deen

and those who propogate shirk

true, provided you can establish that some one is an innovator.

Shirk is the fitna

@infatuated Quran Hadith is clear and direct about it

e.g @Mujahidمجاهد is an arabic person

but are you sure you are clear about Quran and Hadith?

he has studied much of Quran and sunnah

@infatuated Yes\

but the most fundamental disagreements often emerges between those who have studied all of the Quran and Sunnah and have arrived at very different conclusions!

and if he sees that a person "Ibn Kharabi" claims that there can be prophets after Muhammad SAW then he can label him as an innovator based on a sahih hadith that there are no prophets after Muhammad pbuh

Many Kharajites who fought Ali Ibn Abi Talib had memorized the entire quran!

@infatuated Yes

they were empty of sunnah\hadith

Ibn Abbas explained from Hadith , did not use his philosophy

many kahrijites reverted back

even today you see those who have just memorized Quran are treated as if they are some Alim\Maulana. Many of them dont even know the meaning of surahfatiha

(Indian)

Many people came they were intelligent , creative , intellectual thats good

but people also tend to apply their creativity in deen and exaggerate things and philosophize things which are part of deen. This is noting but attacking the deen which is complete.

It is a common misconception that Ibn Arabi rejected the sealing of the prophethood.

@infatuated Yes I know , i gave an hypothetical example

@Mujahidمجاهد what you say??? and @goldPseudo?

Comprehension of religion demands reflection and contemplation and without it religious faith will lack consistency, depth and substance.

@UmarAdeel what i say about what?

@goldPseudo ^^^

@DoubleAA well, if take the average of "shoulder" and "wrist", you end up with "elbow". so in a sense we were all right.