English Language Learners

@snailboat I only wanted to be suspended a while ago. My project is over now, and I don't need suspension anymore. Promise that I won't get suspended, and I would!

My arms at the ready!

Anonymous

Uh, okay! I won't suspend you for your next message.

GATA

It's scary :)

Damkerng T.

test

Awal Garg

6:17 PM

^happy @snailboat?

Anonymous

Haha, nice.

Damkerng T.

See, nothing wrong with the chat room.

GATA

:D

Awal Garg

@snailboat you saw enough. deleting it now....

Damkerng T.

I think it's fine to leave it like that. :D

I expected the chat room to crash or something. :D

Here is where it begun:

in Sandbox, May 20 at 15:52, by Awal Garg

onebox nest test fun:P

GATA

6:20 PM

It crashed for me. I use Firefox.

Damkerng T.

I use Firefox too; it's fine.

GATA

The chat rooms margin changed for me.

Damkerng T.

Oh! What version do you use?

Anonymous

Mine's fine, too.

GATA

I think its Last one. I cant find the help menu.

I found it. its 29

29.0.1

Damkerng T.

6:28 PM

It's strange that it changed the margin.

GATA

I was trying to select what Awal had posted by dragging the mouse pointer. Perhaps thats what caused it to change.

Be back later :) Dinner time.

Damkerng T.

Have a nice dinner!

Parth Kohli

6:45 PM

The power of bounties on main.

Anonymous

Bounties are funny.

Parth Kohli

He has taken the joke deep down to a new level.

Anonymous

Who has what?

Parth Kohli

@snailboat Did you read the post?

Anonymous

No, the URL made it look like it wasn't to my taste

Parth Kohli

6:53 PM

@snailboat Yeah, that's true... but the joke is well-written and contains nothing too wrong.

GATA

I can't do this anymore I thought I've drank the last bottle of coke yesterday. Mom brought in 6 more bottles from patio for dinner.I wonder, What have we gave to gusts to drink in the wedding.

Damkerng T.

No liquor?

GATA

Yes we had one bottle on every table.

Damkerng T.

7:10 PM

So the liquor was gone, but you have lots of soda coke left? :)

(I don't know which one is more torture.)

GATA

:D

both

Damkerng T.

Is this true?

GATA

Acctlully I don't drink alcoholic drinks too much. In wedding I drank Champagne for first time.

Damkerng T.

> "This cake tastes wonderful. Did you bake it yourself?"
"This cake tastes wonderful. *Have you baked it yourself?"

@GATA Ah, champagne is nice!

I'm curious what's wrong with "Have you baked it yourself?"

GATA

It seems correct.

Anonymous

7:19 PM

@DamkerngT. It sounds like another experiential perfect: Do you have, in your past, the experience of baking it?

Damkerng T.

@GATA Yes. I found it used as an example in a few grammar book. (You can try searching for the sentence "This cake tastes wonderful." on Google Books.)

Anonymous

But I suppose the other interpretation is available

Anonymous

I would be more likely to say "Did you bake it yourself?", though

Damkerng T.

books.google.com/…;

Anonymous

I'm just making a wild guess here, but perhaps that use of the perfect is more common in BrE?

Anonymous

7:21 PM

It's just, in my idiolect, my personal English, the have version would be strange.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I can read a bit of an explanation here: books.google.com/…;

Hmm... The reason they gave sounds strange.

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't realize you were saying it was an example of an error :-)

Damkerng T.

I ran into the example, and I was curious, why it's an error.

Anonymous

There is a type of semantic interpretation called in CGEL "the perfect of recent past" which I thought might be able to account for it

Anonymous

But I don't know.

Anonymous

7:23 PM

Let's see. What is their rule?

Damkerng T.

> The influence of definite noun phrases.

Anonymous

What I came up with was "it sounds like an experiential perfect, which is strange"

Damkerng T.

Is that for real!?

Anonymous

A-ha, I see what they're saying

Anonymous

The NP has definite reference, but what they call the "indefinite perfect" seems to call for a NP without definite reference

Damkerng T.

7:25 PM

How can noun phrases get involved?

Anonymous

That fits with what I was thinking.

Anonymous

I'll try explaining it in my own words.

Damkerng T.

Oh, now I'm very curious!

Anonymous

"My, that cake looks delicious! Do you have, at any point in your past, the experience of baking it?"

Damkerng T.

Eh, that's weird!

Anonymous

7:26 PM

When I ask "Have you ever been to Paris?" I'm not asking about a specific time you've been to Paris, right? I'm just asking if you've ever had that experience of going to Paris.

Anonymous

When I ask you if you've baked something yourself, it sounds like I'm asking if you've ever had the experience of baking that thing.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

It's not about a specific cake.

GATA

I got it :)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

7:27 PM

It would work with a class of cakes.

Anonymous

But here, it seems to refer to a very specific cake.

Cerberus

@snailboat So you are also saying the "recent" present perfect, more common in Britain, is limited to certain Aktionsarten?

Anonymous

@Cerberus God, I have no idea. I was making, as I said, a wild guess to try to explain why someone would think that phrase was fine. :-)

Anonymous

But that's because I misinterpreted what Damkerng was saying. I thought it was taken as a given that it was fine for some speakers.

Anonymous

But it's not for me, so I made a wild guess as to what might be different.

Anonymous

7:29 PM

Then I discovered that he was using it as an example of an error.

Cerberus

The phrase "This cake tastes wonderful. *Have you baked it yourself?" ?

Damkerng T.

@Cerberus nods

Anonymous

Yes. My intuition said "Hmm, that might be okay in BrE" so I labelled that as a guess. :-)

Anonymous

But please, don't take it as an assertion.

Cerberus

My intuition says the same, but my English is mostly British, and yet I'm not sure I would ever say that.

Anonymous

7:30 PM

I know the perfect is used rather more often in BrE when it's optional.

Anonymous

And I think that might extend to uses of the perfect for recent past events.

Anonymous

I don't have enough exposure to BrE.

Anonymous

I will be right back

Damkerng T.

I think Aktionsarten are very important.

(I'm not even sure how to spell its plural/singular.)

Ah, got it. I found its Wikipedia page.

What are the Aktionsarten of English?

being excited...

What makes you feel "*Have you baked it yourself?" sound so wrong?

GATA

Lexical aspect

The lexical aspect or aktionsart (, plural aktionsarten ) of a verb is a part of the way in which that verb is structured in relation to time. Any event, state, process, or action which a verb expresses—collectively, any eventuality—may also be said to have the same lexical aspect. Lexical aspect is distinguished from grammatical aspect: lexical aspect is an inherent property of a (semantic) eventuality, whereas grammatical aspect is a property of a (syntactic or morphological) realization. Lexical aspect is invariant, while grammatical aspect can be changed according to the whims of the ...

Damkerng T.

7:39 PM

@GATA Yeah! I think it's a very big key, perhaps the key, to master English tenses and aspects.

13 mins ago, by snailboat

"My, that cake looks delicious! Do you have, at any point in your past, the experience of baking it?"

This is a very good explanation, but what triggers the experiential interpretation?

GATA

This is really beyond my knowledge :) I think I will just sit and read your comments for a while.

Damkerng T.

It's very subtle. I couldn't tell what's wrong about the "Have baked" version the first time I found it.

Cerberus

@snailboat Yes, it does.

GATA

If YOU couldn't do it then how could i do it :)

Damkerng T.

@Cerberus The first time I read it, I thought it was fine as in "it has just been baked".

@GATA You sure can do things I can't, I'm sure. Let's try to learn about it together. :)

GATA

7:45 PM

Thanks :) sure.

Cerberus

@DamkerngT. Yeah I'm not sure. I probably wouldn't use it...I think.

Damkerng T.

According to the book I linked to, it's because "The influence of definite noun phrases."

But I'm not so sure if it's the reason. (Though I couldn't dispute it.)

> "Cup cakes taste wonderful. Have you baked any yourself?"

I think it's passable.

> "This cake tastes wonderful. *Have you baked it yourself?"

Now it's incorrect.

Hmm... If the book is right, then definite noun phrases are the factors that trigger of the experiential interpretation, which in turn causes the perfect tenses incorrect, and so we would simply use the past tense.

(I have to read what I wrote myself a few times to get what I thought.)

Cerberus

Hmm...

I shall have to ponder this.

Anonymous

8:10 PM

Although the book doesn't phrase it the way I expect, it seems like a good description to me

Damkerng T.

The book makes this sound like something incorrect (if I understand the book correctly):

> "Do you remember the book I lent you two weeks ago? *Have you read it?"

Ahh... I think I get the book. "Have you read it?" (in my example above) is fine.

GATA

I think this is a little different.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

It is fine.

GATA

Have you read it yet? Have you finished yet?

Anonymous

8:23 PM

@DamkerngT. Wikipedia does not explain it the same way as any of the books I have

Anonymous

I tried to give an overview of a way you can split it into the traditional 4 categories

Anonymous

Stative, Dynamic { Punctual, Durative { Atelic, Telic } }

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes. I just found the message you mentioned them, but I think that's unnecessary now.

Anonymous

You end up with:
1. Stative
2. Dynamic→Punctual
3. Dynamic→Durative→Atelic
4. Dynamic→Durative→Telic

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

8:25 PM

I'm not aware of a good reference online

Anonymous

Just a moment...

Anonymous

You can start with Comrie's Aspect, pp.41-51

Damkerng T.

Oh, it looks like great stuff. Thank you very much!

Anonymous

Different authors take different approaches. Comrie is a standard reference, though

Damkerng T.

Hmm... punctual-atelic? Can you give me a quick example?

Anonymous

8:31 PM

On page 42, he describes cough

Anonymous

Ergh, I need to force more of this through my brain later :-)

Anonymous

I'm going to try re-describing that later

Anonymous

I think I got confused just now when I looked at Wikipedia

Damkerng T.

It sounds like he talks about the habitual meaning.

Anonymous

Stupid Wikipedia.

Anonymous

8:39 PM

I think he distinguishes habitual from iterative

Anonymous

CGEL uses the term "multiplicity"

Anonymous

Which it divides into "iterative", "repeated", and "serial"

Anonymous

I can't say I'm really fond of those terms, since they all suggest the same thing to me

Damkerng T.

Ahh... "one single cough" vs. "a series of coughs"

Unless I can get some clear examples, I think it's really difficult to distinguish these three: "iterative", "repeated", and "serial".

Anonymous

I can give you examples. I wasn't sure if you were interested in their distinction

Anonymous

8:42 PM

Let me see:

Anonymous

They use iterative for situations that are repeated as an inherent quality of the verb:

Anonymous

> She knocked at the door.

Anonymous

See, she may have knocked more than once.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So the verb contains within it an "iterative" sense.

Anonymous

8:43 PM

They use "repeated" for situations with an explicit indication of the number of times (even if it's nonspecific):

Anonymous

> She saw him twice / several times last week.

Anonymous

Here, the multiplicity isn't related to an inherent trait of the verb, but is instead supplied by the explicit text "twice" or "several times"

Damkerng T.

Ahh... so the duration between two actions is much longer.

Anonymous

Could be. But that's not necessarily part of it.

Anonymous

But I think that "iterative" verbs tend to be shorter term.

Damkerng T.

8:45 PM

A-ha! "She knocked twice." is a "repeated" usage.

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

So, this is how CGEL explains Comrie's semelfactive

Anonymous

They say that the situation as a whole is durative ("She was knocking at the door") but the sub-situations are punctual (the individual knocks)

Damkerng T.

> In linguistics, semelfactive is a class of aktionsart (verb aspects that reflect the temporal flow of the denoted event, lexically incorporated into the verb's root itself rather than grammatically expressed by inflections or auxiliary verbs).

@snailboat That quite makes sense.

Anonymous

And so you can refer to it either way, making the progressive possible.

Anonymous

8:47 PM

That is why "She was coughing" is possible, even though each individual cough is punctual.

Damkerng T.

I guess it's the same for "He was hitting her." too.

Anonymous

Their last class of multiplicity is "serial", what I would prefer to call "habitual"

Damkerng T.

(Not a very nice example, but the verb just came up in mind.)

Anonymous

The way they describe it, the number of repetition is unbounded.

Anonymous

So "She usually mows the lawn herself" is an example

Damkerng T.

8:48 PM

Yes, it sounds habitual.

I guess that "every month" or "every year" would fall into this class.

Anonymous

I like the distinctions they make, but I dislike the terminology. I'm not sure what to say. I'm somewhat comfortable with Iterative for "She was knocking at the door" and Habitual for "She usually mows the lawn herself"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes. But "She mows the lawn herself" would also be habitual.

Anonymous

Even though it has no expression of how often or of periodicity

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's true!

But, hmm, isn't it true that most verbs can be used this way?

Anonymous

Mow has no inherent multiplicity.

Anonymous

8:51 PM

But these are attempts to classify "situations" suggested by predicates

Anonymous

The individual verbs play a role, but you can't assign this sort of aspect entirely to them.

Damkerng T.

10:01 PM

Oh, I just saw this scene from The Five-Year Engagement. It reminds me of one question on ELL about how to say something else instead of sh-t!.

Here is my edited dialog:

> P1: As you know, we have a sufficiency of qualified candidates for a position in your department,
but you got it.
Congratulations.

P2: You're being promoted to assistant
professor, tenure track. Congratulations.

Violet: Holy shit!
[Trying to compose herself in her chair...]
Sorry, that was really inappropriate, it's just...
Shoot, I am so thrilled.
Thank you.

P1: Congratulations. Professor Walch.

Violet: Bravo, bravo.
Thank you, Professor.

Fudge,

Wonderful.

So she went from Holy sh-t! to Shoot! to Bravo! to Fudge.

Finally, she could keep herself calm and said Wonderful. :-)

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