English Language Learners

Oh, somehow the system kicked me out of my logging in.

Would you agree "could" in Scene 3 is a suggestion?

I mena in that context it is a request to Neo. But they way that "could" is used there is similar to "you could use some help"

Anonymous

I would agree that the illocutionary force of the sentence is equivalent to the imperative form "Neo, help me"

Anonymous

I am not sure I can say that "could" is a suggestion

Anonymous

5:02 PM

I need to talk about larger units than that

Anonymous

"I could use some help" ≒ "I need some help" ≒ "Please help me"

Anonymous

Semantically speaking

Is it any different from "you could use some help"?

Anonymous

@Nico You're asking if the interpretation of the word could is different depending on the subject?

Anonymous

I think of could use as an idiom

5:04 PM

I'm asking if you think so

I think you may be right (cheking ngrams)

Anonymous

"I think he could use our support" ≒ "I think we should help him"

Anonymous

"I could use your help" ≒ "Please help me"

Anonymous

In both cases could use is something like "need"

Anonymous

I guess you can interpret it literally.

Anonymous

"I could make use of your help [because by myself, I am somewhat overwhelmed at the moment]"

5:08 PM

goo.gl/R2Afep

Anonymous

"He could make use of our support [because by himself, he is somewhat overwhelmed at the moment]"

Anonymous

Something like that

ZZ has a lot of questions about modals. (Not to say that's bad though)

Anonymous

"Oh, man, I could use nap right now"

Anonymous

No, modals are a great topic for questions.

Anonymous

5:09 PM

I hardly ever answer them 'cause modals are hard ;-)

Agree!

Anonymous

I set a much lower bar for myself here in chat. I'll talk about whatever.

Anonymous

Sometimes before I've really thought it through.

"Aye, sir. I thought you might be able to use some help."

Anonymous

@Nico Yeah, I guess it's really just a property of use in constructions with modal meaning

Anonymous

5:11 PM

And could use is just a common collocation with those properties

Anonymous

Maybe I shouldn't refer to it as an idiom

@snailboat I you're right. "Use some help" only appears with can/could/be able.

I consider "use" and "make use" equivalent

Anonymous

Yeah, make use of is a paraphrase of use with the same meaning here.

Anonymous

Just like be able to is a paraphrase of can

I bet that we can find "I would/will use someone's help" in Ngram too.

Anonymous

5:18 PM

Doesn't sound quite as idiomatic to me, but I can't rule it out

"would use X help" is down.

The only thing Ngram returns for "will use * help" was "will use the help".

> The worker can only do her or his best to maximize the possibility that the client will use the help, leaving the final decision to the client.

> I will use the help of anyone willing to keep our history at home so it can be viewed by the descendents of the people who made it.

I'm think of adding this comment for ZZ:

> We're discussing "I could use some help" in the chat room. It is a common collocation/idiom. Its meaning is better explaned by how it is used than the usage of "could" as modal verb.

Anonymous

Ahh . . .

Anonymous

I haven't decided how best to describe it.

Anonymous

But it's clear that there's a sense of use which commonly appears in construction with words with modal meaning, such as can, could, and be able to

Anonymous

5:30 PM

Most commonly could use

Anonymous

That's what we've found so far, right?

yes

I just wanted to check, there is nothing utterly wrong with the comment.

Anonymous

I don't know how its meaning is best explained :-)

and I think ZZ could discuss modals with us here (and torture snailboat in the process :p).

Heehee.

Anonymous

5:36 PM

Well, it's okay. I like talking about English, and I feel helpful, like I'm a potential resource, even if I don't know everything about the language

Anonymous

Sometimes I worry that people take me too seriously :-)

Anonymous

But then enough people usually come around who don't, so it keeps me in line!

Anonymous

This modal verb stuff is hard.

nods

I think one thing that makes is harder than it should is because people in different regions use modal verbs differently.

Anonymous

Yeah.

5:42 PM

Though in Standard English (whatever that means), the usages are close.

Anonymous

There are multiple Standard Englishes.

That's quite likely!

Anonymous

People who speak different Standard Englishes in different regions use modal verbs differently.

Anonymous

Certain constructions are standard in AmE but not BrE, and vice versa.

nods

Anonymous

5:44 PM

It's true that there's no dialect that is universally perceived as standard across the world. It's usually more useful to refer to a construct as standard or non-standard, and one construct may be standard in e.g. British English and non-standard in American English. "Standard English", then, is shorthand for the dialect which contains the features that are standard in the relevant context, so a British speaker likely speaks a different Standard English than an American speaker does. Therefore, kiamlaluno is correct that there "isn't a Standard English", but there are many Standard Englishes. — snailplane Mar 2 '13 at 1:10

2

Wow!

I'm surprised that hasn't been starred ;O

I haven't finished reading it. :D

Oh wait it's from a question :\

Anonymous

It's from a year ago.

5:45 PM

I thought it was from this chat LOL

Anonymous

No, I just thought it'd be easier to quote myself than explain the same thing again. :-)

But a bit more seriously, I think the ELL (or ESL) tests are designed with some kind of Standard English (or a specific version of it) in mind.

Which might or might not reflect the reality.

Anonymous

Well, you can certainly test the set of features where there's overlap between the core dialect groups.

Anonymous

Since BrE and AmE are 99% the same.

^ Was about to say that ><

I've never seen a question that has different answers in different Standard Englishes.

5:50 PM

In tests?

In tests, yes.

Good ones, I mean.

Hmm... I'm not sure either, because I've never seen the real tests.

Do they try to force surely when we say sure or quickly when we say quick?

Anonymous

The last time I took a standardized test of English was when I took the SAT. I guess I was 14.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ha! You're skeptical of test-makers' ability to determine what is standard!

Yes, I am!

Anonymous

5:52 PM

"Yes, I am!"

I mean, test makers are people too.

Anonymous

It's true.

@DamkerngT. They do!

Anonymous

People do conflate formality and correctness.

They even consider singular they wrong!

Anonymous

5:53 PM

That's silly.

See, that's one. :D

Anonymous

There are times when singular they would probably be considered nonstandard, though.

Anonymous

For example, if the sex of a particular referent is known in the discourse and I nonetheless continue to refer to them as they

Anonymous

I'm not sure what precisely the limits are.

I'm not sure, but they might force us to use a perfect tense when a simple tense is fine too.

Anonymous

5:54 PM

I've never been comfortable with this "perfect tense" business.

I think I'm still not sure.

Anonymous

CGEL says it, too.

Anonymous

Why tense and not aspect?

Anonymous

I'm going to have to read that argument for the zillionth time.

Ahh... I think I've heard that once, perfect is better thought of as aspect. I think I agree with the idea.

Anonymous

5:56 PM

Because it still hasn't managed to get through my skull.

Anonymous

Not to be confused with perfective aspect

Anonymous

I really wish someone hadn't invented a contrast between perfect tenses and perfective aspect

Anonymous

That's one of the most confusing terminology piles anyone could have piled.

A lot of us learners are not taught 'aspects'. We know them just as parts of 'tense'.

Yes, so in our books, how many tenses do we have?

36?

5:57 PM

12?

The last time I checked LOL

Anonymous

Wow!

Anonymous

I'm most comfortable with saying English has two :-)

I tend to like simpler things, so I think the two-tense system is very attractive. :D

Anonymous

It makes the most sense to me.

Some even combine voices and tenses (with aspects), getting 24!

5:58 PM

I don't even know what aspect is = =.

continuous or progressive is a good example of aspects.

Oh thanks.

perfect is also often considered an aspect.

No problem. :D

That, too!

Anonymous

@Fantasier Yes, and in discussions of Japanese it's generally called an aspect

6:00 PM

ooooh! I have an aspect :)

Anonymous

I'm wearing a-spectacles.

Lulz

@snailboat LOL I like that one =b

Don't make aspectacle of yourself!

Anonymous

@SantiSantichaivekin It was aspectacular joke.

6:02 PM

which is aspectacularly funny.

Anonymous

+1 It might also be approached as an infinitive of purpose: "[I know him by sight, but ] not for the purpose of conversation" — StoneyB 1 min ago

Read for aspection?

Well, it's the same as the quote above. To a native speaker, that exchange as written doesn't make any sense. "I know not to speak to him" or "Not well enough to speak to him" work. — boatseller 33 mins ago

A-ha! This means that the phrase is not very common.

I suppose so.

HAve to admit I never heard it

Anonymous

6:05 PM

I don't think it's particularly common, but I recognized it.

I know "not to speak of", but that is almost exactly different

Anonymous

Enough to be relatively confident about what it means, anyway

A: Increase close vote weight for gold tag badge holders

I was trying to relate this "speak to" to "speak of", several times.

Obviously, I was wrong. :D

Anonymous

114

Update: this is now enabled everywhere! The rules are: You can instantly close as a duplicate any question that was originally asked with a tag you have a gold badge for. You can instantly reopen any question closed as a duplicate that was originally asked with a tag you have a gold badge for....

Anonymous

StoneyB is our sole gold tag badge holder, and he has it in grammar

Anonymous

6:13 PM

He's also our sole silver tag badge holder :-) Which he also has in grammar

Nice!

Anonymous

(Although I'm at 320, and you get the silver one at 400! Yippee!)

Anonymous

So now StoneyB can instantly close as duplicate any grammar question.

Hmm, this is the first time I've seen meta.SE

I need one lousy pint for my first bronze. Also in grammar :(

6:14 PM

Seems to be relatively new.

@snailboat But only if it was originally tagged with grammar

Anonymous

@ParthKohli Yes. It was split off from Meta Stack Overflow

Anonymous

@oerkelens Yes.

Ah, it's meta.SO!

So smart dumb users can open questions without the tag :)

Anonymous

6:15 PM

It's okay. No one asks questions on ELL without tagging them grammar. It's some kind of rule.

The design looks much better.

Anonymous

@ParthKohli More precisely, it was split off from meta.SO. The latter exists, too:

Anonymous

But it's now specific to SO.

Anonymous

Some questions went one way, some questions went the other.

6:16 PM

I don't know if I will get any of those badges.

Thank you. What if a user wanted to port all their rep to meta.SO?

point! POINT! I don't need a pint!

Anonymous

Meta SO no longer has its own reputation system.

Aaaargh :'(

@oerkelens I think you don't need a pint, you need several.

Anonymous

6:17 PM

Like on normal metas, meta SO users inherit their reputation from SO.

Oh, just like all other sites.

Thanks.

Anonymous

MSE is exceptional still.

@DamkerngT. It doesn't help :(

:P

browsing for typing course again

6:18 PM

I read that line as Alex Murphy made his sacrifices already (hinted by "recovery", "how many times", and "have been"), and the decision the Senate will make tomorrow will definitely result in one of the possibilities: that the sacrifice "will have been" or "will not have been" in vain. — Damkerng T. 2 mins ago

Today I managed to "paraphrase" a sentence in the exact original words :(

I just made another guess. Hope that it's reasonable enough. (I haven't watched it yet.)

Anonymous

I'm not planning on watching the new Robocop movie(s?)

And @DamkerngT. dutifully edited the typo the OP had made out of my C/P as well

@oerkelens I'm sure that your "paraphrase" is as good as the original. :D

Anonymous

6:19 PM

If the perfect construction does locate the action in time, then I suppose in this case perfect tense seems appropriate

@snailboat You can watch me, a robomop, instead. :P

yeah, I had typed a whole different sentence, but my connection was hickupping

Anonymous

Hooray!

Anonymous

Oh, no! Your connection has the hiccups!

Anonymous

Place a small dab of pure sugar on its tongue.

6:20 PM

I've had too many pints!

It had:) I had no sugar, so I suddenly yelled at it. It got scared and the hiccups were gone

And then my colleagues were upset :(

Oh, I always use a bag.

Anonymous

Sugar always works for me.

Anonymous

It stimulates the vagus nerve, donchano.

I don't know why breathing in a plastic bag works, but it seems to work for me, very well.

6:22 PM

Used to eat chalk. Now they have no black boards anymore, so no chalk available :(

Hah! For real?

@DamkerngT. If you do it long enough, it cures everything :P

Anonymous

Oh! Snails like to eat chalk.

Anonymous

They use it to build their shells.

@oerkelens Yeah, it can put me out of my misery, too.

6:22 PM

@DamkerngT. Prolly same effect as sugar

@snailboat And ever seen a snail with hiccups?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sugar cures it within one hiccup for me every time. It doesn't work for my housemate, though.

Means it works, right?

Anonymous

@oerkelens Don't be silly! Snails' nervous systems are too simple for that sort of dysfunction.

@snailboat I say it is the chalk. Makes more sense

:)

Anonymous

Snails are a deadly serious topic.

Anonymous

6:24 PM

Also, they're cute.

Cute little serious things. :P

I will try sugar next time. Have to get sugar though. I have no sugar in the house in any free form

Anonymous

@snailboat Sounds like women. :)

Anonymous

That's Snaily.

6:25 PM

I think I can see one snail, but not sure if there are two snails in the pic.

Anonymous

Only one.

There are snails crossing the sidewalk in the morning. Always same direction, as if they have meeting on the other side every night....

gulp

Oh!

What is that big brown thingy?

Anonymous

Snaily's acorn house!

6:26 PM

I'm starting to grow suspicious. I'm thinking about bringing some of them in for questioning.

Anonymous

Sadly, I dropped it a few weeks ago and it broke.

Neat!

@snailboat Aww... That's too bad.

@oerkelens So they do that regularly, every night?

Anonymous

I'll have to get a new one. Right now I put the red house from Baby Town in.

Anonymous

This house, if you remember the babies:

Anonymous

6:27 PM

@DamkerngT. They must. Every morning they cross the sidewalk from right to left. So at night they must have been going the other way

@snailboat I do!

@oerkelens Considering their speed, that must be quite an adventure for them!

I think kitties are cute, but I have to admit snails are too

@snailboat Oh, so you pet a snail? Great!

@DamkerngT. Yeah, so they must be really motivated. That is what makes me suspicious

Oh, cats can have hiccups too. Very funny. :D

Anonymous

6:29 PM

@SantiSantichaivekin My icon is my pet snail Bean.

Anonymous

gulp

@DamkerngT. Cats copy humans so much I sometimes wonder if it is not us copying them :)

@ParthKohli Does a pic of a snail make you hungry?

Is it eating something?

Anonymous

6:30 PM

That is a slice of banana.

@oerkelens That's quite possible. I think sometimes my cat think he is petting me, not the other way around. :D

@DamkerngT. Hunger is when you have the urge to take food in. Looking at snails gives me the urge to do it the other way.

@DamkerngT. Well, actually I'm quite sure cats domesticated us

@ParthKohli Aww... but they are cute too!

@oerkelens LOL

@snailboat Be careful, overeating may makes your snail fat =b.

6:32 PM

I mean, they were living happily in Africa, they found a bunch of weird apes breeding rats. So, they decided to keep them :)

@oerkelens Hah! So that was how it began!

Anonymous

@SantiSantichaivekin It's okay, they know how much to eat :-)

Yups. Egyptians bred rats in big grain warehouses. Cats liked hat very much, so they decided humans were useful. Let's face it, who came out of it on top? The humans that fed, petted and adored the cats? Or the cats that made it to be gods? Literally?

Anonymous

@ParthKohli So you're gulping down vomit?

@snailboat A quality that cats don't have. :D

6:35 PM

I mean, just imagine walking in on a species and making them pray to you as a god

That is power :)

Anonymous

Do you have an aversion to all mollusks or just land-mollusks?

Anonymous

@snailboat [GULPING INTENSIFIES]

@oerkelens Oh, now it starts to make sense!

@DamkerngT. Again, just like humans, some cats eat too much :)

@snailboat A sea cat!

Cute!

They had one in the zoo near where I lived

went to say hi every weekend :)

6:36 PM

Oh, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at!

I've heard it from somewhere that squids are smart too.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A cuttlefish!

@DamkerngT. A cuttlefish / sea cat / sepia (yes, it has ink, and the name of the colour comes from this animal)

Anonymous

A cuttlefish is like a land slug

It's a squid

like thingee

Anonymous

Land slugs evolved from snails to have only an internal shell

Anonymous

6:38 PM

And cuttlefish too evolved to have only an internal shell

Eh? So slugs have shells too, but internally?

@snailboat Except that it doesn't live on land, it can swim, it has arms and sprays ink?

Anonymous

Most do, yes.

Anonymous

@oerkelens I was drawing a parallel, not defining them

Anonymous

Like slugs, they're mollusks that evolved to have internal shells. :-)

6:39 PM

:)

Anonymous

Which is what I said.

Still, I somehow think a sea cat would be insulted to be called a slug

or even compared to it

even remotely

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But snails' shells are all very different because they evolve to suit the snail in its native habitat. Slugs' shells are vestigial and are mostly undifferentiated between species

Are those related to later skeletons or not?

Anonymous

Skeletons?

6:42 PM

like bones

inside bodies

Anonymous

I know what a skeleton is.

of vertebrates

:)

Theta30

hi

I think fishes and mollusks have evolved separately since a long time ago.

@Theta30 Hello!

Theta30

wow

Anonymous

6:42 PM

All mollusks are invertebrates.

I was just wondering if there was any link between the internal calcium shell and the internal calcium vertebrae :)

Anonymous

There are no skeletons later in the evolutionary chain

@oerkelens That makes me feel like missing my old science books.

Hi @Theta30 :)

@snailboat Not in mollusks. But iirc there were mollusks way before vertebrates

Anonymous

At least, as far as I'm aware, we're not aware of any evidence that any vertebrates are descended from Mollusca.

6:47 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3237026/
dislocation of mineralized skeleton from the outside to the inside of animal bodies, proved to be a major adaptive advantage. Especially in animal lineages that later gave rise to vertebrates, the appearance of endoskeleton enabled the expansion of activity radius and habitation of entirely new environments (Bennet 1991)

(p 3)

haven't read th ewhole thing yet :)

Anonymous

Let me know if you find something relevant!

Yups, I was indeed off by some years :)

well, millions

:P

Forgot that tiny detail about the mouth thingee

Protostomes and deuterostomes, led to molluscs and chordata (vertebrates) respectively

So, the skeleton evolved without the help of snails :P

Ice Girl

@oerkelens Hi

Hi :)

Anonymous

@oerkelens There's remarkably little fossil evidence for mollusk evolution

7:01 PM

mmmm... some of the most common fossils are mollusks, no?

They just didn't seem busy evolving?

Anonymous

@oerkelens Punctuated equilibrium

Wait, how did you all go from a, um, deadly serious topic like pet snails to this ultimately deadly academically serious biology topic?

I hope that is not a rude expression :P

@Fantasier why, it's still about molluscs

And all the while I'm reading up on Snail Painting

Although it wasn;t what I thought it would be :D

petsnails.proboards.com/thread/12281?103725=undefined

Anyway I'm going to bed z_z See you all later!

Ah, see you. Have a good sleep!

Anonymous

7:08 PM

@Fantasier Rest well!

@Fantasier I think it's like one minute we were talking about conversational English, and the next minute we would be talking about things like "experential perfect", which could even be more interesting! :D

Rest well!

:D

@ParthKohli Well, he writes fantasy books, right?

runs

7:45 PM

> I walked a lot to get there.

What would be the default interpretation of the native speaker?

It was a long walk?

I usually walked to arrive there?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This one.