TRPG General Chat

shatterspike1

12:04 AM

Wow is that a lot of edits as discussion

KRyan

@shatterspike1 check out the comments on the accepted answer; it's even scarier

shatterspike1

I saw.

KRyan

I'm not sure why it hasn't triggered the "move it to chat" thing yet

which is what I was hoping for

shatterspike1

I might edit the question just to get rid of all the needless discussion.

Tridus

Yeah it's odd.

I think we're near reaching an understanding with him

if we can do that, I'll edit the question myself to fix it up, because it was just fine in its original form.

(Apologies in advance to whatever mod encounters that, it's certainly been a roundabout adventure of trying to sort it out with him.)

KRyan

12:50 AM

@Tridus looks like it was @C.Ross

C. Ross

@KRyan @Tridus was me. Sorry for burninating everything, but I couldn't figure out how to disentangle the good from the ... yeah.

KRyan

@C.Ross I'm sure that's cool. I'm still not sure about the question itself; that wall of text in the middle is really hard to read

C. Ross

@KRyan it's no masterpiece, but I couldn't find you a dozen comparable upvoted questions.

KRyan

@C.Ross yeah, suppose so

C. Ross

Halloween dread this week :-)

Tridus

1:05 AM

@C.Ross Yeah, thanks for fixing it C. Ross. :) Sorry for so many comments, we couldn't get him into chat and it kind of never ended.

C. Ross

1:47 AM

@Tridus thank you for working so hard to fix the mess!

night y'all!

Magician

4:58 AM

Random thought of the day: monomyth is circular; levels are linear.

Alex P

@Magician Interesting.

Counterthought: look at the monomyth plotline as a spiral: when you get back to your home, your world is bigger than it was before.

You are more. Your horizons have shifted.

Magician

Hmmm. That's the thing, though. Levels are not introspective. You are not changed by the experience, you're just better at what you were.

Both are somewhat implicit structures, lurking somewhere below the narrative. Seems like they're in conflict.

Alex P

Well, that is why I hate levels.

I feel no resonance between leveling up and events in the fiction.

And attempts to force that (training rules and whatever) really don't work well.

BESW

6:05 AM

Hmm.

Alex P

@BESW You're back. Morning time?

BESW

Not really.

"You of the West," Malik said, "think of time moving in a straight line, from past to present to future. Your eastern brothers regard time as a circle, returning endlessly in a cycle of decay and rebirth. If you were to combine geometrically the movement of the circle with the movement of the line, what would you have?" He snapped his mouth shut and peered at me with an uncanny resemblance to my old schoolmaster.
"The spiral?" I ventured.
"Yes, yes. Or the helix. They are our models of the passage of time.

5

Magician

I'm impressed by how fitting your quote is.

BESW

We passed through another door and entered a chamber inside the spherical dome. A creaking wooden device, powered by water, turned a gigantic stone pillar, and as it revolved, a mechanism climbs up the spiraling ledge, reading with its sensitive fingers a series of notches and carvings. At intervals, colored flags would rise, whistles would sound, or pebbles would drop down on brass bells.
"What time is it?" I asked, reaching instinctively for my pocket watch.
Malik took a step back. "Time for Kentrosaurus to hatch. Time to plant the millet. Time for the magnolia buds to open. Professor Den…

From Dinotopia: A Land Apart from Time (James Gurney 1992), pp 67-69.

Alex P

Now you just need a quote about how Dinotopia hates levels.

BESW

6:18 AM

It's one of my favorite books. The rest of the franchise is lukewarm at best, sadly.

@AlexP You know, I might be able to, provided one was willing to read into it.

Alex P

@BESW Reading into things is something I do a lot of. ;)

Magician

I've been bitten by a radioactive owlbear of game design. Perhaps critically. I'm having ideas.

(and probably yet again reinventing Fate)

BESW

Heheh.

Magician

Character advancement as a spiral. Each character starts with several core values. Maybe just aspects, maybe something more codified like Aspiration, Inspiration, Tribulation, Temptation. Each is used as the driving force behind the character. Write them in a circle around the character name, on the innermost loop of the spiral. A scene can challenge one of these, and cause it to be lost or change - cross them out, and write a new one on the next loop.

Once all but one have been replaced, the character has advanced to the next "level", becoming something more than they used to be.

BESW

Sounds a little like Do.

Magician

6:33 AM

...which demonstrates why paladins exist to Fall. It's the only character advancement they have open to them.

@BESW Yeah, I remember you talking about it. It's on a List. It's a rather long list, though...

BESW

I hear ya.

Alex P

@Magician That's just because "Find the Grail" isn't a D&D storyline. ;)

BESW

I've shortened my list by eliminating almost everything that requires reading more than 100 pages to get a basic grasp of the system.

Magician

@AlexP It really isn't. The D&D quest for the Grail as quest for self-improvement slams head-first into levels as self-improvement.

Alex P

It's hard to dungeon your way to humility or charity.

Magician

6:36 AM

The answer to it really is "I'm a level 20 paladin".

@BESW I've done that for a while, and it's great because I could run a game for a couple of weeks, get an idea of what it's about and move on. But now I'm reading Eclipse Phase, and the rules scare me.

BESW

@Magician I suppose in some circles, "I'm a level 20 paladin" means "I avoided the GM's alignment traps for 20 levels," which is a kind of Grail plot.

Alex P

Well, you can fall and atone.

So you can get there even if a few alignment traps end up hitting you in the face.

But "traps" is a good metaphor because, well, I've never actually encountered a fun trap.

They were either a pointless tax to get to the next thing, or an annoying puzzle.

Which is a great metaphor for paladins and alignment, really.

BESW

I'm trying to think of fun traps in a campaign.

Alex P

It's a trudge through minor inconveniences like "tithe a bunch" and "don't be friends with evil people" punctuated by the occasional crazy "Will you kill innocent orc babies if they are future orc Hitlers?" faux-ethical dilemma.

BESW

I think the best example is the one-two pit trap sequence in Keep on the Shadowfell.

Alex P

6:45 AM

@BESW In my experience the traps that work are part of the scenery rather than the obstacle per se.

Oh, but I must sleep.

Good night.

Magician

Good night!

BESW

ttfn

Magician

Proper Paladin answer to baby orcs is either a) orcs are Always Evil, so they die; or b) orcs are Often Evil, so now I'll devote my life to bringing them up properly, bye.

BESW

Sir Richard the Orc-Killer's Orphanarium for Savage Children?

Magician

First is boring (and distasteful), second takes the character out of the game. Neither is fun. Paladins are not fun in D&D because they're not murder hobos.

BESW

6:50 AM

"No Child is Incorrigible."

Magician

@BESW Hahaha, yeah. That's what the city PCs founded in my campaign ended up being: they kill peoples and take their children away.

So now the city is full of orphans, literal or figurative.

BESW

7:07 AM

This.... is one reason I think alignment is silly.

Jonas

9:26 AM

@BESW: Is there such a thing as a fun trap (for the players, not for the sadistic GM)?

BESW

10:09 AM

@Jonas I think so, yes.

I'd have to put some extra thought into it to say much useful, though.

Off the top of my head, a fun trap is rarely suddenly lethal. It is usually anticipated, giving the players a chance to prepare for it, or it appears suddenly but acts slowly.

Mechanical structures for "fun" in a D&D-type context are usually built to promote creative player reactions.

So there has to be room for creative player reactions to occur, and to be meaningful.

Jonas

In other words, a fun trap cannot really be a good trap (because a good trap is not usually telegraphed, and kills quickly and efficiently)

BESW

D&D-type scenarios aren't about optimal effectiveness anyway, because a villain who optimizes will nuke all possible interlopers from orbit the instant they start thinking about him.

Instead, think James Bond or The Middleman.

Magician

Traps are tricky. @BESW, I think, describes the 4e method of trapbuilding: they're just a part of the encounter. Instead of goblins you're fighting swinging pendulums (and goblins). The oldschool traps are deadly, but the fun comes in outwitting their creator. Unfortunately, that quickly devolves into searching every square inch of every dungeon, and disbelieving in everything at the same time.

I.e. following "best practices" of adventuring rather than genuinely outwitting the trap.

BESW

@Magician I once tried coming up with a homebrew class or PrC for insane illusionists who could treat illusions as real and the real as illusions.

"Nah, that wall isn't really there." [walks through solid wall, party fails painfully to follow]

Jonas

Anyway, I have had fun with what I call "cave stomach" - a stationary monster living in dark tunnels waiting for unsuspecting adventurers to walk into its mouth. The "mouth" of the cave stomach spans the entire diameter of a corridor. It is of mossy texture and secretes a slow-acting paralyzing poison. Once adventurers have advanced deeply enough into the stomach, the mouth will close and digest the victim. Cave stomachs can be recognized by the smell of its gastric fluids.

BESW

10:22 AM

@Jonas So... an exogorth?

It's a decent trap in the sense we're talking about because failing to notice it changes the type of response necessary but doesn't make response useless.

Jonas

@BESW: actually a bit more like an ant lion

or maybe a venus flytrap

@BESW: yes, it's quite neat in that you can easily make players suspicious without them figuring out things right away. Furthermore, at the "back end" of the cave stomach there is the potential for finding all kinds of non-digestible items.

BESW

On the other hand, it promotes paranoia which can ultimately cripple the game.

D&D is famous for its ability to create environments where everything in the room wants to eat--and so does the room itself.

Which leads to @Magician's "best practices" scenario.

Jonas

Yes, but at least you go from a rocky floor to a squishy one, and it starts to smell more and more like vomit

BESW

If you teach the party that they can't trust any part of the environment, then they will test every part of their environment, forever.

Jonas

What you should attempt to teach is when there are signs of danger, there is likely to be danger

For example plenty of headless, armored skeletons lying on the ground

Or a room where the floor is covered by a black goo, and there is a mummified hand still grasping a stone. It is cut off right where it would have touched the goo.

So maybe they should be wary of stepping into the goo.

Additionally, the players should indeed not trust anything in "deadly dungeon of Sadist Sandokar", i.e. paranoia may be good within that limited spatial scope

Aaron

12:26 PM

Good Morning

BESW

12:37 PM

Hi.

Aaron

How was everyone's weekend?

BESW

Meetings, work.

Aaron

Ah.

Any plans for Halloween?

BESW

Not really something I do much for.

We haven't lived in Halloween-focused neighborhoods for twenty-five years.

Aaron

Halloween seems to be dying off due to paranoia and idiots. "What is the candy is poisoned?" "What if my kid is kidnapped?" Yes those are viable questions but at the same time are the exception not the norm.

Keep a hold of your kids hand and only eat candies that are store bought.

BESW

12:53 PM

There are other aspects, also. Like the awareness that it's actually kind of a jerk move to expect strangers to purchase and distribute massive amounts of candy or be subject to public shaming.

The "adult" element of Halloween marketing and culture (boozey parties with Sexy Whatever costumes, as an example) is also distancing the "kids having fun" element of the day.

Aaron

@BESW Perhaps that is what is happening. People see Halloween as sexualized and not for kids.

I have a meeting. Be back in a few.

Aaron

1:17 PM

@BESW I meant to reply to this.

Hello @AlexP

Alex P

Hi

Trajan

@Aaron organiznig a murder party

(wikipedia tells me that it's called murder mystery game in english)

Alex P

@Aaron Naw, nighttime house-to-house trick-or-treat has just been replaced with "all the businesses at a strip mall give out candy from 10 to 2, and maybe there's balloon animals or face-painting or something."

As far as I know, the whole costume industry is doing better than ever.

Which is a bit surprising given how rubbish most of the costumes are.

Aaron

@AlexP This makes me sad.

@AlexP Next year me and my GF are doing a clown theme. I am getting that clown morph suit I linked to awhile back.

@AlexP Walmart has crappy costumes but if you go online you can find really good costumes.

Alex P

@Aaron I'm saying this based on browsing Amazon.

The costume industry as a whole has a number of problems:

Aaron

1:32 PM

@AlexP Ah. Let me look. One second

@AlexP Look here. These guys made brilliant costumes morphsuits.com/digital-dudz

Not all of them are morph suits if that isn't your thing

Once I get my new phone I am going to put the app for the moving body parts.

Alex P

(Well, I'm primarily talking about children's costumes.)

Aaron

Oh yea most of those suck

Alex P

1. Boy's costumes tend to have fake fur, thick fabric, or those padded superhero muscles -- i.e. they're warm outside costumes. Girl's costumes don't -- they're indoor party costumes. But that doesn't especially sync up with what people do on Halloween in any meaningful way.

2. A lot of girl costumes are terrible. They're basically the "Sexy" adult costumes with tutus. That's not necessarily an attempt to sexualize children as much as a quirk of producing costumes in general.

3. The "profession" costumes are depressingly, awfully gendered.

It's all so lazy, you know?

Aaron

@AlexP I suppose.

So You can only wear 2 rings and benefit from them. Is that the passive affects only?

This is for pathfinder

Alex P

1:49 PM

Well, in 3.5:

> A character can only effectively wear two magic rings. A third magic ring doesn’t work if the wearer is already wearing two magic rings.

Aaron

@AlexP Indeed.

One moment though

So lets say I have 3 rings 2 have passive abilities only, swim +5 and climb +5. The third has an activate ability like it casts a heal spell. If a person wore all three could he/she activate the third and one of the passive deactivate temporarily?

Would that be within the rules or would that be something the DM needs to rule about

Alex P

The intent of the rules is for slots to be hard-and-faster slots.

But they also tend to be pretty lazy and forgiving about, say, pulling out a wand to do wand stuff.

Aaron

@AlexP I am not sure what you mean.

Alex P

Like you have two rings, period.

And one amulet.

And one belt.

And one boots.

And one cloak.

Et cetera.

Like a video-game paper doll system.

Metool

You can wear as many magic rings as you want but each ring only allows one other ring on your hands if you want it to work.

Alex P

1:57 PM

Imagine this question as "you are wearing two amulets."

The rings seem to throw people for some reason.

Aaron

Ok. :( Darn I was hoping I could make two passive ability rings and have something like a ring of stars. Only less powerful cause that ring is OP

BESW

Suggestion:

Put on the ring of stars, then two passive rings.

Take off one of the passive rings to be able to use the ring of stars.

Metool

Coffee, coffee coffee coffee. It's not as strong as methamphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth.

@BESW Do you know the Order of the EZIC Star?

BESW

[quick Google] I am passingly aware of the game it's in.

Metool

Indeed.

Just wondering if this is an interesting costume.

BESW

2:09 PM

Depends on your goal.

Aaron

@BESW That is likely what I will do. I was simply hoping to not have to remove and put back on a ring as that would be a move action I think.

Thanks for the help.

LitheOhm

3:46 PM

@sardarthrion ha! I dunno, the pizza store nearest here might or might not be into pirate-speech.

Aaron

So I am thinking of enchanting my hammer with [Anchoring] (d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/…)

That... did not work as planned. Anyway

If I anchor a foe would allies treat it as grappled?

Surely it would take penalties when being attacked but it does not say anything.

BESW

Question for the main site, perhaps?

DampeS8N

I would never have guessed how hard it would be to insure this business. I... I may have to find an insurance agent that actually games to get them to understand.

Aaron

@DampeS8N What seems to be the issue?

DampeS8N

4:01 PM

@Aaron The script goes like this:

Me: It is a social club where members pay a monthly fee to be able to use our ephemera to play tabletop roleplaying games.

Them: Ok, great! So how many computers do you have for these games?

Me: No... There are no computers, they are like board games.

Them: Oh, I get it. So how much merchandise will you have, what are your expected spua (sales per unit area).

Me: No, We won't be selling anything. It is a social club. Think about it like a Gym Membership.

Them: Oh, then we'll need injury protections and...

Rinse, repeat.

Aaron

Hahahahah

DampeS8N

...

Aaron

hopefully they eventually understand. You could ask them to find someone in their company who plays dnd or something similar so they know what you mean.

DampeS8N

Holy balls

Alex P

@DampeS8N You may be stuck having to insure it as a library?

DampeS8N

4:08 PM

OMG OMG OMG

Aaron

@DampeS8N ?

DampeS8N

The guy... That sits next to me now....

Aaron

What about him?

DampeS8N

He is Joe Huber.

As in Wizards MTG Joe Huber.

Alex P

Ha! I mean, I had to look him up, but that's cool.

Zachiel

4:12 PM

Ah, choices.

Hello guys.

Aaron

@Zachiel Hey

DampeS8N

@AlexP Yeah yeah, me too. But I just overhead him talking about where he just came from to someone else.

Aaron

Another random question from yours truly. If I have an armor and shield both enchanted with spell resist 15 do I have spell resist 30?

DampeS8N

I can't say why he is here, unfortunately...

Alex P

Secret bunker. Got it.

DampeS8N

4:14 PM

@AlexP lol, no, just announced project. Nothing so dramatic.

Zachiel

@Aaron No, they don't stack in any edition I know of.

Aaron

@Zachiel Aww. Frowny face. Oh well :) I didn't figure they would.

Zachiel

Congratulations on meeting a well known game designer, maybe tell him what WotC is doing wrong?

@Aaron I can remember a vest that actually increases your SR if you already have one, but I should ask for its name

or maybe I saved it in a file

DampeS8N

@Zachiel Well, he doesn't work there anymore. lol

Aaron

@Zachiel If you happen to find that please link me but don't worry about it.

Zachiel

4:18 PM

@DampeS8N Congratulations to him too!

DampeS8N

@Zachiel lol

Aaron

Wow using enchantments only I can have my medium creature using a large weapon and hitting at a gargantuan size cat.

Zachiel

Shillelaghs

Aaron

@Zachiel ?

Zachiel

Anyway. I'm getting ready to DM KotS (Keep on the Shadowfell, also known as H1) and every guy on the internet that made modifications to the plot makes me want to do those too. I just have a Points of Light module with a FR adaptation where I try to remove the FR evildoers to put Orcus disciples back in.

Aaron

4:27 PM

That's a Druid spell right?

Zachiel

@Aaron yes and it's wonderful

Aaron

@Zachiel I am using a warhammer.

My DM let me cut the hand off of a Balor and attach it as a gauntlet and the enchantment is I can wield a large weapon with it. I got the idea from Darksiders. War's left hand.

Zachiel

@Aaron Daazzix's vest

BESW

Hellboy's Right Hand of Doom... maybe.

Aaron

@Zachiel Thanks. I will make note of it.

Zachiel

4:31 PM

@Aaron from DMG2

Aaron

@BESW That would actually work better as It is red. Either way it is just a gauntlet now.

@Zachiel I don't have that book but I bet I can find a description of it online.

Zachiel

I'm not gonna bet against you on this one.

Problematic

4:59 PM

The next bundle of holding goes live in about an hour, and is Cthulhu Mythos-themed.

Zachiel

I need to learn how to make a plotline graph

I also need to learn how to decide which monsters to use in any given encounter. Like, cool, this idea of using monster vault minions and stuff is great but... this way I'm not running the encounter in that other way and I'd like to play both and... it's a great mess.

C. Ross

5:14 PM

hmmmm

1

Q: How do you get a DM to stop targeting you?

My group previously had our latest session over the weekend. It was the first one in this campaign so we changed up the roles a bit. I usually DM and I wanted to be PC for a while so we switched it up. Our new DM has rule games before, but this time it was way out there. It was going pretty good...

Another "people are bad" with the answers being "talk to them"

wax eagle

@Zachiel not necessarily the best built encounters in the world, but I'd steal prebuilt encounters from pre written adventures

shatterspike1

Two in a week, too.

wax eagle

dragon magazine has scores of them

C. Ross

I don't see that it's directly off topic, but I don't want the site to be overrun by ... well rants? thoughts? close votes?

shatterspike1

I feel like these sorts of questions should be more... concise.

I mean, these are appropriate questions, it's just the responses tend to either be A) Talk to them or B) Leave the group

wax eagle

5:18 PM

@C.Ross yeah I just finally read that...I'm not sure what to do with that. There is obviously underlying tension between the players and the DM and it's...ranty...and the answer...well the answer is simply that they need to have a sitdown and be adults about it

I gave it a "too broad" close vote

I think that's probably what's necessary here.

Zachiel

We probably need a new closing reason, or a rule that deems off topic these kinds of questions

wax eagle

@Zachiel see my comment on the question for why I believe it's too broad.

Essentially there are two options for complete answers the simple "talk it out" gloss over, or the more complicated "how to play RPGs and win friends" book version. In between likely doesn't cut it. And that's too broad in a nutshell to me.

shatterspike1

@waxeagle If questions like this were edited, they would be more valid. They also have the exact same answer. Maybe close as duplicate?

wax eagle

@shatterspike1 I'm a bit wary of duping things that are that personally motivated

Zachiel

might it be "primarily opinion-based"?

wax eagle

5:23 PM

@Zachiel another good option, though primarily opinion-based ends up classing basically all of our non-rules questions

Zachiel

yeah, I see how this is a problem

shatterspike1

@Zachiel "Likely to draw only opinions or attract much discussion"

Is what it normally says under the opinion based question.

Which is sad, because it's a valid concern that should have a good answer or two.

It essentially boils down to "My DM and group have decided to be assholes to me" or "I'm reading a whole lot more into the situation than is warranted" depending on the question.

Zachiel

And I hope I've made both options clear in my answer but...

I feel it's not a duplicate, because each case has its own symptoms... I'll vote to close because "too broad" for lack of anything better.

shatterspike1

Why is it necessary to close the question?

Zachiel

@C.Ross do you really feel the question could be narrowed to something that's actually ok with our standards?

If we want a rewording of the question to attract better answers, VTC will put it on hold, protecting it from other answers to the actual question (despite mine being out and upvoted, which makes me involved, I feel like the question could need some rework). I see C.Ross's point.
On the other hand, I fear this will lead to nothing more useful than what it is now.

C. Ross

5:33 PM

@Zachiel I'm not sure. I see one big rant that resolves down to "how do I deal with trolls"

I'm going to hit close, but I welcome edits, comments, and reopen attempts

Zachiel

@C.Ross And I don't think this is really a .SE concern, but it's RPG related in this case so... it's a borderline question.

BESW

There's an unhealthy power play in there somewhere: the guy can't challenge the GM's authority too much without undermining his own authority when he's a GM.

Zachiel

@BESW May I cry "BRAIN DAMAGE!"?

BESW

Sure, but I won't know what you mean.

wax eagle

@Zachiel tbh while the context is RPG it's not really about RPGs...

this could be imported into any social situation where the power dynamic changes and the person who finds themself in power is abusive to the previous person in charge

BESW

5:38 PM

It's a scenario common to RPGs, though, albeit not one unique to them.

Zachiel

@BESW It's something that came up on the Forge. Games that allow such unhealthy power games are said to be damaging to the brain because they teach you to think in a certain way and you get accustomed at solving problems the wrong way, just because in that context, it works. Or something like that.

I'm fetching you a link

wax eagle

@BESW agreed, partly because the power dynamic is so clearly delimited in many RPGs (particularly the d20 set)

BESW

@Zachiel Wow. The Forge games I've played do nothing to avoid that dynamic.

Aaron

So I am thinking of surprising my GF with a romantic trip. Any recommendations on locations? I am not sure of budget yet but deffinantly under 1000 US $

BESW

My Life With Master is all about the GM being cruel and vindictive to the players AND their characters, and then the PCs getting revenge on the GM avatar.

@Aaron You don't have to go far.

A nice B&B weekend, or a drive to a national park that tells Halloween stories.

Zachiel

5:42 PM

@BESW indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php?topic=33122.0

@BESW don't they all have the rules in the book and the GM, if present, has no official power of changing the rules during play? So if something bad happens to your character it's not the GM being mean to you, it's the rules of the game being applied. This protects people from a responsability.

wax eagle

@Aaron Don't know about you, but we favor secluded cabins in the woods/mountains with a hot tub and a kitchen (for making your own meals). We can usually find a weekend for ~300 which leaves money for some nice meals out and adventures on your budget :)

Zachiel

Specifically, MLWM tells you the GM will be an abusive a-hole. It's expected.

Aaron

Hmmm. Good suggestions.

Zachiel

got to go now

bye

Aaron

I would have liked to leave the US but doubt that can happen.

BESW

5:48 PM

Maybe there's a drive-in theater you can travel to.

For me, it'd be less about how far the destination is or how famous it is, and more about how you get there and whether the destination is personalized.

Aaron

@BESW This is for valentines day AND our 2 year anniversary.

I usually get inspiration from random suggestions from others.

BESW

So, with the example of a drive-in theater, say it's a day's drive away. Take two days, make it a leisurely drive in which you stop at little roadside attractions and have some nice hotel stays arranged. Then drive back along a different route.

wax eagle

state highways are fantastic for that. if you don't need to get there in a hurry don't take the interstate.

Aaron

@BESW Not a bad idea. Notes it down for later research.

wax eagle

@Aaron where in the US of A are you located?

Aaron

5:56 PM

@waxeagle Mid upper Missouri

BESW

I'm trying to remember the town in Florida we stayed in...

It's a good example of another idea I have.

Anyway.

There was a little town, slightly run-down, with a lovely old 1920s hotel that had been a vacation resort of the rich and famous, even the set of a couple of films.

It was a "sit on the porch and sip lemonade" kind of place, with a little town center where you could get used books and ice cream in walking distance, and a restaurant across the road.

Very quiet, peaceful, not the kind of place you go to Do Things, more the kind of place you go to Not Do Things.

wax eagle

@BESW which is kind of perfect for a romantic weekend.

love small town america just for that stuff :)

BESW

Or take a train! Amtrac has some interesting train tours.

wax eagle

@BESW ooh yes, trains!

BESW

Being Amtrac, you've gotta be okay with being up to a day off schedule, but if you can get into that mindset (and bring a lot of snacks) then it's very relaxing to just not care about when you'll wind up where.

Someday I'm going to take the Adirondack train tour.

Is there a historical place, or person, or event that you both like?

If you like the Transcendentalists, to Concord and see Thoreau's grave and the rude bridge that arched the flood.

Or go to Chicago, see whatever interests you there: the Field Museum or the Bahá'i House of Worship or the Steppenwolf.

In summary: travel in an interesting/enjoyable/leisurely fashion, and have a relatively simple destination where the emphasis is on you two and not the spectacle you've come to.

Alex P

6:13 PM

Err, the "brain damage" thing isn't power structures per se. It's Vampire.

BESW

Aw, man. The Mentalist killed Christopher Walken Guy.

Alex P

@BESW Which guy is Christopher Walken Guy?

BESW

Agent Kirkland.

Alex P

Oh, yeah, last week.

Aaron

@BESW Sounds like she would love it.

BESW

6:27 PM

@Aaron It was also mildly haunted. [grin]

Aaron

@BESW We are already Haunted we don't need to bring anything back with us.

Alex P

6:46 PM

@Zachiel This is why Edwards drives me crazy. His posts are full of "My terminology is garbage and people keep misunderstanding me somehow!"

E.g.

> [Side note: it is no surprise to me that of every term I've ever suggested, introduced, or adapted in my writings about role-playing, Force is the one most consistently elided or illustratively mis-applied by readers. You should go read the definition in the Glossary again. It doesn't say what you probably think it says. The damage to your own intellectual pathways is preventing you from reading it.]

(This is from a quote that is otherwise awesome, mind you.)

shatterspike1

7:02 PM

I've read through at least three of those posts and still have no idea what brain damage means.

Aaron

@shatterspike1 I gave up after reading the first and went back to looking for enchanted items.

Alex P

@shatterspike1 Here's the juicy part:

> "Story-oriented" without story
Deprotagonizing is the baseline, the pure default of play; when that's the case, "permission" for one's character to matter, however momentarily, becomes the key reward, often withheld
No situation or conflict yielding Premise, therefore no developing of Premise through fictional events
No consistent use of a given technique for a given situation - sometimes you roll, sometimes you don't; sometimes a shouted announcement "counts," sometimes it doesn't
Disappearance of the reward system, replaced by fiat and the fact of inclusion

shatterspike1

Thanks AlexP

Alex P

(Force is GM trickery)

> **Co-dependency and reinforcement of emotional dynamics which aren't rewarding**
Childish behavior during play: pouting, crumpling up papers, tuning out, arguing to disrupt
Ongoing power-struggle over outcomes of game techniques, a brinksmanship of flouting "rules"
Socially poisonous dynamics surrounding play: ostracizing, overriding, currying favor, participating in a running dialogue of "who said what about whom"
Specific and utterly tacit power-structure reinforced by the above: impossible expectations of fun - you have to guess what I want and provide it consistently

> **Disconnection between what is done and what is produced**
Hyper-tension about one's investment in a given character creation (not play, creation), resulting in posturing and defensiveness during play, which can only be a threat to the potential of that creation
Inability to reflect meaningfully on the experience, including resisting discussing actual play in any accurate or critical fashion
Inability to identify a reward system, "play is its own reward" - which means, inclusion is the best one can hope for

shatterspike1

7:30 PM

Sounds like he's saying "Illusionism creates problems down the line trying to play games that don't use Illusionism".

Alex P

@shatterspike1 Yes, very much so.

The "brain damage" is learning to play games where only the GM can actually do anything but we all pretend that we are playing together. And then, subsequently, you can't actually play anything, only pretend to.

shatterspike1

Whereas I'm agreeing with some of the posters down the line who are saying "It's a mode that can be switched in and out of."

I've had games where the DM is very open about what we do and games where the DM is very heavy (obviously so) with illusionism; I just have different modes for playing these sorts of games. What's more, the same people were involved in each of them.

We've had lots of initiative and choice in one game, and very little to none in another.

Alex P

All my experiences with illusionism are fundamentally toxic. And this comes from me being the illusionist more than half the time.

shatterspike1

@AlexP I do notice some of the behaviors he outlines in the details apply to me perfectly in one game, and couldn't be further from the truth in another.

Fundamentally toxic? I just check out now. It has made me realize how problematic one of these styles is, though.

Alex P

I mean, I was a really, really good Illusionist GM. I really was. I still despise the experience, and not for ideological reasons.

And eventually I tried indie RPGs to fix it, but honestly they didn't right away. Because habits are ingrained but also because the Forge-era games really aren't explaining themselves well on a technical level.

shatterspike1

7:49 PM

That makes sense, I think. Is there a game that's good at explaining it on a technical level?

Alex P

I think part of it is just the environment outside the game text has changed.

More deeply than that... I'm trying to think.

I can definitely say that The Shadow of Yesterday didn't do it for me. Nor did Riddle of Steel (which was once a Forge darling, as hard as that may be to believe now, given its decidedly un-Forge-y style).

shatterspike1

Maybe techincal isn't the right word here. Something in the realm of "clearly and concisely"

Alex P

Yeah.

I think DitV did a good job explaining some bits, but I couldn't figure out how to play the game fully that way at the time. Because the town creation seemed to encourage my Illusionist Superpowers to come back into play.

shatterspike1

Hmm... maybe he was grappling with "Brain Damage" at the time he was writing it?

As a relative newcomer to RPGs, it's a bit hard for me to understand this particular mindset.

Alex P

@shatterspike1 DitV? No, it's more that I really had no sense of how to present the situation in such a way that it stayed relevant to the PCs without having a clear idea of how they were "supposed to" resolve it, I think.

shatterspike1

7:56 PM

Although I can look at a movie like "The Gamers 2" and say it's obviously dysfunctional how the game is run.

@AlexP Ah. When you say "supposed to", do you mean multiple outcomes? One outcome? That they wouldn't solve it on their own according to how they played their characters given the chance?

Alex P

So, to me, Illuionism is when I as the GM take all the responsibility for the fun. Part of the feeling comes naturally from the ways a lot of the hobby idolizes GMing (not altogether unfairly -- GMing is important and sometimes challenging, after all). In my case, it's not so much that I was trying to make everyone ride my railroad...

It was more like I'm secretly the ultimate arbiter of what's best for everyone, continually overriding mechanics or subtly pushing players in certain directions to create my vision of what a "good story" would be, for everyone, above all other concerns. Which totally involves deciding that you're gonna make Alice feel awesome and important this week, or confront Bob's character with a cool moral choice (and you are 98% certain he will pick the option you want, because of seeds you planted)...

It's sorta hard to pin down without looking at the game as a whole.

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