@Anonymous you...don't know many table top gamers do you?

@Anonymous they aren't mutually exclusive

@waxeagle No. Not really. I am not really sure what table top gaming really is... unless I look it up.

@waxeagle What are not mutually exclusive?

@Anonymous I think the surprise factor probably comes from perceptions that RPG involvement is more common among programmers (the overflow from StackOverflow), that RPG fans would be more inclined toward online involvement, and perhaps that RPGers have a higher proportion of strong enthusiasts combined with the Truth issue that Christianity.SE has (admittedly this would have less effect on traffic than on acceptable question count). Surprise is often largely about bias in perception.

@Anonymous Warhammer 40,000 is a great example, and is one of the funnest in my opinion, though I hear the 6th edition is not really that good, comparatively.

With many table gamers, it is a lifestyle. They religiously attend tournaments and other events at their local shop, go to conventions, and even try to convince other "non-believers" to join them.

@Anonymous dungeons and dragons would probably be the most known one

@Anonymous taking lessons from successful business models and reading and thinking about the words of Christ

@fredsbend And the good thing is that they don't have to believe that you will go to Hell, if you don't participate at their social club. :)

@waxeagle I have a board game called The Key To The Kingdom. I may have heard of Dungeons & Dragons before; it sounds like an adventure RPG like The Key To The Kingdom board game.

@Anonymous not familiar, D&D is fairly generic fantasy in it's default setting, and has funny dice :)

Some people are frustrated with The Key To The Kingdom, though, because skilled players can just go into the whirlpool and prevent other players from winning, and the game itself can last indefinitely.

(not truly funny dice, the truly funny dice are reserved for other games)

@Anonymous meh, that doesn't sound like fun :).

@waxeagle So does the Key To The Kingdom. D&D is known to have a 20-sided die, which I think is rare.

@Anonymous it's quite common now that D&D is popular :). But yeah, most actions require a d20 role, it also uses d12, d10, d8, d6 and d4

truly odd games use things like a d5, d7 and d30

five sided dice are wierd though

The Key To The Kingdom actually uses an 8-sided die.

@waxeagle Though, I think it depends on what subgroup of Millennials you are talking about. Some Millennials may have specifications for the "perfect church" or "perfect religion", while other Millennials avoid organized religion altogether. Why attend a church when a family can practice something at home?

@Anonymous true.

@waxeagle Additionally, it's not that Millennial Americans are being less affiliated with organized religion; they just become less affiliated with Christianity. Some become devoted Neo-Pagans.

At this, it makes me wonder what is so attractive about religion in general.

@Anonymous true to some degree.

Maybe religions give people a sense of purpose in life and that they are in the world for a reason.

@Anonymous heh. You've heard the song "god shaped hole?"

@waxeagle Eh?

A fairly common philosophical viewpoint among Christians is that all men long for God.

hence "God shaped hole" and also informing the attractiveness of religions in general

One of life's bigger questions: Why are ketchup packets always easier to open than mustard packets?

@fredsbend is mustard more acidic? it might react with the foil used in ketchup packets

mustard is almost universally packaged in plastic wheras ketchup is usually in a slightly foiled packet

@waxeagle Is this a Christian band, or just happens to be a musical band that happens to create spiritual music?

@Anonymous Christian band

@waxeagle I do get the feeling that theology itself is really the study of humanity. :P

@Anonymous we are made the image of God :)

so it goes both ways, in studying God we learn about ourselves and in studying ourselves we learn about God

@fredsbend I consume more ketchup than I consume mustard. Perhaps, unfamiliarity with the package due to less consumption of the material inside the package may be the reason.

@waxeagle They both have plenty of vinegar. I don't know if acidity is the reason.

But interesting point. Ketchup is in a kind of foil and mustard is in a kind of plastic.

The plastic is probably cheaper, but surely allows more light in. Perhaps mustard doesn't react poorly with light.

@fredsbend might have to do with cost too as Anon pointed out, we consume a great deal more ketchup than mustard

@fredsbend another good point, mustard packs are often clear on one side too

@waxeagle Maybe telling color is desirable. There are different kinds of mustard. Pretty much only one kind of ketchup.

which brings potential issues with light reaction for ketchup into play, though I don't think that's a thing as bottles are distributed in clear packages

@fredsbend very good point, and people have strong preferences based on the colors/types/styles

@waxeagle Yes, that throws the light theory out the window.

btw @fredsbend do you collect/paint minis other than WH40k?

@waxeagle Hmmm... I wonder if it's possible to learn about God and be more godly without actually believing in God.

@waxeagle Nope. Would love to, but I don't have enough time to paint and play as much 40K as I would like.

Plus, I'm broke.

And 40K ain't cheap.

@fredsbend There are many types and brands of ketchup too.

@Anonymous Brands, yes. Types? Okay, there's red, and ...

@fredsbend There is Chinese catsup that has no tomatoes.

@Anonymous I don't know if that counts. I bet it has a different name; Americans just want to call it catsup instead of the Chinese name it likely has.

@fredsbend I once had a former math teacher who made barbecue sauce out of ketchup. Barbecue sauce is normally brown.

@Anonymous Barbecue sauce is ketchup based. So is stake sauce. Typically you simply add spices and/or spice and flavor rich fluids such as worcestershire sauce.

For all of you Protestants here, how many of you believe in the Protestant work ethic?

The Protestant work ethic is a religious precept that rewards should be earned and that hard workers are morally superior to freeloaders.

I am not sure how Protestants work that out with "Sola Fide".

@fredsbend cuz: kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/…

@Anonymous you add a bunch of brown sugar to it, and also cook it down, that's where the brown comes from

@Anonymous yeah it's kind of contradictory. But remember that we believe that works proceed from faith

@waxeagle Still, I don't think that makes you so different from Catholics, the people that you are supposed to oppose since the Reformation. Maybe times have changed, and now Catholics and Protestants are becoming buddies.

I think that's a good thing, because then a person doesn't have to find a spouse that is affiliated with his or her own denomination.

More choice of marital partners. :)

Of course, only one marriage.

@DavidStratton Have a some time today to discuss your question. Read Jn. 16 & Heb. 7:12 for basis that exposes the doctrine of substitutionay atonement to be a falsehood. Both of these statement are direct counters to that argument.

1. Jn. 16:8 certifies that guilt relative to sin remains as the unilateral condititon after Jesus' was crucified.

Since Jn. 16:8 can only be a true statement there must be some other legal process of resolving a sin's guilt post of Jesus' crucifixion or his statement is not true.

Since it is true that none of the OT code was to be abolished and the law was changed upon Jesus' ascension the only way it could have been changed is by adding to it. Otherwise to change the law parts or all of the written code would have to be abolished.

@AJHenderson Henderson for you to accurately derive what my primary concern is it would be an accident.

@TheodoreA.Jones I'm just asking you to consider why you decided it was most important to agree with someone that they are going to hell rather than suggest how to fix it, that's all.

Personally, I'd never simply agree with someone that they are going to hell. I'd say, yes they deserve it, but this is why they don't have to..." and go on to explain about what is needed for salvation

@Anonymous Work ethic may slide into this belief (hard workers are morally superior / God rewards them with lots of money / poor people lack faith) which I consider to be completely wrong-headed and morally abhorrent. Work ethic itself is fine - it just interprets that we should live simply, work hard, be generous, etc. as a moral obligation. In the same way we are morally obliged to not murder people. So no new faith/works issue needs to arise.

@Anonymous I've never even heard of it

though it may be based on the notion of working unto God

I forget the exact verse, but it's something along the lines of doing all things unto God or something like that, so it could logically follow to do your best in those

but I'm not sure where the reward part would come from

possibly some combination with storing up treasures for yourself in heaven, I don't know though

@Anonymous the main issues of the reformation as I understand it was more practices like selling salvation

and other serious middle age oriented issues

there are more minor issues that are still present, but things have improved a lot

I know many Catholics who I fully expect are saved

I'm actually watching the current pope with great interest. I think he has a strong possibility of being very good for the Catholic church as a whole, though I hope the spiritual part of his goals is not lost in the humanitarian

@ Wikis concerning your Answer to the question "How do you "convert" someone to Christianity", point 4. of your answer: "Jesus offers to swap his righteousness for our sins. This is possible because he sacrificed Himself on the cross.

@AJHenderson I think so, and it has a lot to do with avoiding excess - profligate spending, lack of charity, indulgence in vice, and so on.

As the joke goes, Catholics think gambling is bad because you could lose everything. Protestants think it is bad because you might win.

@JamesT interesting, though I'm not sure if that is accurate. I've never gotten that impression from any of the protestant churches I've known or been part of

maybe some protestant denominations, but all the ones I'm familiar with seem relatively similar to Catholics in regards to finance and work ethic

though admittedly, it can vary a lot in both from congregation to congregation

@AJHenderson could you be thinking of Eph 6:5-7: "Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man…"

@JackDouglas that might be it

I think there might be some other similar verses

but that one certainly does cover it

There is a similar, shorter version in Colossians at least. 1 Cor 3:15 also springs to mind: "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Hmmm, this is useful: openbible.info/topics/work

@Wikis. It is not possible to sacrifice ones's self on a cross when nails are used to attach the body to a cross. Since he was nailed to a cross by both hands and his feet somebody else had to be involved in 'sacrificing' him.

@AJHenderson Perhaps this is very culturally conditioned. Have you heard the saying that playing cards are the devil's books?

Also, dice are the devil's teeth.

This is not to say that losing your money isn't a bad thing. More like: the whole arena of gambling is so tainted that either winning or losing is bad.

Leading inexorably to drunkenness, swearing, fornication, mixed dancing, dogs and cats living together, etc.

@JamesT for me, the problem is that it is a negative sum game. Money changes hands but no useful work is done, a bit like the growing of tobacco. In either case you could argue that there is the benefit of entertainment/pleasure but the fingerprint of godly activity is that it is never just about entertainment or pleasure, but also about sharing and building up others.

@JackDouglas Pleasure is probably very suspicious in itself. "We were not put on this earth to enjoy ourselves" as the saying goes.

@JamesT do you mean 'we' collectively or individually?

@JackDouglas Both? But I don't know if I quite understand the question. I mean to say that this is a cultural sentiment that I have often encountered (but perhaps other people haven't).

@JamesT I think Biblically speaking there is a huge amount of truth in the statement "We (plural) were put on this earth to enjoy ourselves (together)"

A bit less (but not none at all) in "We were put on this earth to enjoy ourselves (individualy)"

Neither is the highest purpose of our creation, but both seem to be very important to God

@JamesT not directly, but heard of it

I do know Christians and denominations that are opposed to gambling

personally, I'm fairly opposed to it too, but not for religious reasons, I'm simply good at math ;)

The major divide is between 'good' pleasure and 'bad' pleasure: the latter usually being the sugar on a bitter pill

@TheodoreA.Jones Did you mean to send this to me? Only I've no idea what you are writing about it.

@JackDouglas Agreed, it is sensitive to the meaning of "enjoy". The saying I quoted is more about self-indulgence.

@JackDouglas what then about a friendly (even if financial) poker game during which people build a sense of community

oh hey, @TheodoreA.Jones I'm not 28 until tomorrow.

while I don't personally participate, I'd certainly say that poker night on our church's men's retreat is something that does build community and bring the men of the church closer together

but then again, it's also only $10 buy in

@AJHenderson iirc it was CS Lewis who said something like: "even drunks carousing have a kind of love for each other". It's better than getting plastered on your own at home.

yeah, though I'd draw the line at drunkeness since that is specifically spoken against. Cards on the other hand wasn't as far as I know

I suppose the question is whether the activity lends itself to the relationship side or the greed side: tbh this might depend a lot more on who is playing than on what is being played

but again, that's an easy one for me as I simply don't like the effect of multiple drinks in general. I hit about 2-3 drinks and have no desire for more

@AJHenderson of course, it's a wisdom call for sure

@TheodoreA.Jones do you believe that Christ was powerless to stop himself from being crucified. Also, do you think that someone who commits assisted suicide did not commit suicide since they died at the hands of another (by request)

@JackDouglas yeah, and I'm sure there are some people who shouldn't gamble because it becomes the greed side rather than the community side

@AJHenderson IIRC playing cards were not invented yet. Dice are specifically problematic because of the soldiers at the foot of the cross. At least that is one quoted reason from the anti-gambling side.

The question then becomes whether you think there are any of those in your fellowship, and if so whether to choose something else to do for their sake: another wisdom call :)

@JamesT that's a bit of a leap isn't it?

@JackDouglas it is a huge leap, but it is a leap that people make

@AJHenderson exactly

They probably need to be gently corrected then :P

@AJHenderson the issue with cards was that of astrology/divination (52 cards, 52 weeks in a year; 4 suits, 4 seasons; 13 cards per suit, 13 lunar cycles (full and new moons); add the values of all the cards = 364, and supposedly the Joker is 1.25 but that is sketchy. The prohibitions have to do with the original design of the playing cards, not necessarily how they are used today.

@Dan wow, never made that connection before

@Dan oh wow, I never knew any of that, thanks :)

@JackDouglas ehh, if they hold it as personal conviction it's fine, if they start trying to yell at others about it, then it becomes more of an issue, though not causing your brother to stumble also comes in to effect

@Dan interesting

@AJHenderson point taken :)

but I still play cards ;)

@Dan considering that that's my TIL I feel like they are sufficiently disconnected to their history that it's no longer relevant

but it certainly informs the taboo quite a bit better

@waxeagle TIL?

I wonder how it expanded in to things like slots and roulete

@Dan Today I Learned

@waxeagle aha

@AJHenderson dice -> games of chanice -> slots/roullete

yeah, so back to the lots bit

@AJHenderson well, the numbers of roulette add up to 666

@Dan o'rly. Interesting. Apparently you have researched this before

or you are VERY good with the google

I watched this, actually ^^^^

And I think the 666 in roulette has far more to do with basic math than with religion, so also I have no issues with it ;)

and if you didn't notice, calculate how many seconds the video lasts ;)

It's also one of the most compelling arguments for understanding the meaning of 666 in textual studies (specifically the Latin 616 manuscript variant)

@Dan The channel is actually linked to another channel, Bibledex, which can be found here: youtube.com/watch?v=upw_Z3-Z_-M

@Anonymous cool

I think the video would be an amateur Bible scholar's dream come true.

They even go to the deuterocanonical books and other apocryphal texts.

I am not sure what would determine the canon.

Maybe the "canon" is determined by what is most appropriate or fitting of the supposed author of the text. If the text is assumed to be written by one of the apostles with some degree of certainty, then it may have a higher chance to be included within the canon.

Suffice it to say, I have not read the Bible in a very long time.

@Anonymous different traditions define the canon differently

@Anonymous You've read some of it recently though, right?

@fredsbend - what are you trying to do with the VGA capture device?

I made a comment on the post, but it seems like there may be better options

@waxeagle No one is promised tomorrow. Don't count on it.

@AJHenderson We capture conference presentations. We sit somewhere in the room, bring audio, vga, and camera of the speaker feed to our recording machine.

There is little to no opportunity to just screen capture. Usually, the laptop on the podium is not ours and they often change them out anyway between lectures.

Here is a sample of our stand alone player.

I worked with distance education in college, did very similar stuff

I suppose we probably should jump over to the AVP chatroom rather than here though

but I figured I'd get your attention here since I know you from over here

@fredsbend - chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/733/audio-video-chat if you don't have the link handy

@Wikis Yes. It was in regard to a statement you made in one of the "Questions". I'll see if I can find it.

@ Wikis. "How do you convert somebody to Christianity?" was the question. What I referenced is point 4 in your answer.

@TheodoreA.Jones: ok, so now I know where that came from... :) so, how would you phrase it?

@Wikis The best place for it is in file 13. It is a fully false conjecture.

@Dan Fortunately, I own a copy of the NRSV with the apocrypha. I think it is a Christian Bible with the Old Testament, New Testament, Deuterocanonical books accepted by various Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Plus, it's annotated and has nice maps and essays.

@Anonymous it's still missing a few the Orthodox would generally include, but any scriptures are better than none :)

@Dan What? What is it missing?

@Anonymous compare it to the books listed under 'Apocrypha' here, pay close attention to alternate numbering/namings of books in different manuscript collections and traditions

@JackDouglas I find that the Bible can only be understood, if one takes the time to read a whole book (i.e. book of Esther) from beginning to end, including reading the little introduction at the beginning of every book.

It's like reading a novel. When you begin reading a novel in the middle of the book, you really have no idea what just happened, who the characters are, and what the conflict is really about. You need to start at the beginning and sometimes read the summary/intro on the book jacket to understand the gist of the story.